#88: Restoring Landscapes and Reconnecting to Nature, with Alexandra Steed

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Green Urbanist, podcast for urbanists fighting climate change.

[00:00:24] I'm Ross.

[00:00:34] Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode.

[00:00:37] This one is a conversation with Alexandra Steed.

[00:00:41] So my name's Alexandra Steed.

[00:00:43] I'm a landscape architect and urban designer.

[00:00:46] She is also the author of the new book Portrait to Landscape, a landscape strategy to reframe

[00:00:51] our future.

[00:00:52] And that's really the topic of today's episode.

[00:00:56] We talk about why she wrote the book, what are some of the core messages within

[00:00:59] it.

[00:01:00] And then we go really, really wide ranging conversation all the way through sort of

[00:01:05] philosophy and ethics around landscapes and our connection to landscapes, all the

[00:01:11] way through to talking about systems changes and even to the minutiae of what can you do

[00:01:17] on your next project to really bring nature to the forefront, even to the point of

[00:01:22] how you're specifying tree pits or not using pits at all.

[00:01:29] So I think it's a really good conversation.

[00:01:31] I think for lots of people, I think lots of people will get something out of this.

[00:01:37] We also talk about restoring landscapes on a large scale and how we can build not

[00:01:42] only biodiversity, but also climate resilience by doing that.

[00:01:45] We talk about bringing nature back within cities and reflect on the UK's Environment

[00:01:50] Act and how that and biodiversity net gain are working in reality.

[00:01:56] And also throughout Alexandra shares quite a lot of case studies of real projects

[00:02:01] so you can make these concepts very tangible.

[00:02:05] So that is good.

[00:02:06] We also just share some book recommendations as well, which I know some of you are probably

[00:02:10] into.

[00:02:12] So yeah, that's it for me.

[00:02:15] Enjoy this chat.

[00:02:17] Last thing I'll say is if you are enjoying the podcast, you can always support it

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[00:02:37] It's called the Green Urbanist Weekly because once upon a time I did post emails on a

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[00:02:58] What's not to love?

[00:02:59] OK, enjoy the episode.

[00:03:01] Thanks, guys.

[00:03:05] One of the reasons we wanted to chat today was about a book that you've just written

[00:03:09] and is out now.

[00:03:11] Yeah, just tell us about it.

[00:03:12] Tell us about why did you write it?

[00:03:14] You know, what's the story behind it?

[00:03:15] All that stuff.

[00:03:16] Right. Well, the book is called Portrait to Landscape, a landscape strategy to

[00:03:22] reframe our future.

[00:03:23] And I really felt a sense of urgency in writing this book, actually.

[00:03:29] You know, as as we look around and we see the state of the environment globally

[00:03:35] with ecological decline, global warming, climate change, polar ice melts, you

[00:03:41] know, severe storms, floods, weather events that are happening kind of more and

[00:03:47] more. They're accelerating.

[00:03:49] They're becoming more extreme.

[00:03:51] And people's lives are really becoming terribly affected by this around the

[00:03:55] world. And I thought I need to do something about this.

[00:03:59] You know, and there's there's urgency.

[00:04:01] The UN has said this is the decade of action.

[00:04:04] We really must make change within this decade before 2030 to turn things

[00:04:11] around before it's too late.

[00:04:13] And so I thought, well, what can I do?

[00:04:15] You know, as a landscape architect, I have certain expertise and certain

[00:04:21] knowledge about how we can go about restoring the planet in certain ways.

[00:04:27] And I wanted I wanted the world to know not only landscape architects and not

[00:04:33] only people within sort of the built environment industries, but also just

[00:04:39] the world to know that there is hope and there is something that we can do

[00:04:43] to change our situation on this planet and to learn to live in a way

[00:04:50] with integrity to inhabit the planet in a different way than we are currently.

[00:04:55] So I wanted to kind of spread the word and to let people know that, you

[00:05:01] know, while while we see so much destruction within the landscape, that

[00:05:06] is exactly the place where healing can occur.

[00:05:09] And that's where we can bring about the rehabilitation required.

[00:05:13] So so I was really inspired to to kind of get the word out, you know,

[00:05:20] just to be another voice that is sharing hope and a different view of things.

[00:05:28] And so, you know, I I chose the the title portrait to landscape because I

[00:05:36] really felt that there was, you know, a very radical shift that needs to

[00:05:42] happen, a critical sort of reorientation of our perspective to broaden out our

[00:05:50] field of interest and our field of stewardship.

[00:05:55] So so, for example, you know, portrait to landscape, you might think of that

[00:06:00] in terms of a frame, you know, a portrait frame that is just looking

[00:06:05] at ourselves really just at a human portrait and then turning it to a

[00:06:10] landscape orientation that's looking at that whole sort of living community

[00:06:14] around us.

[00:06:16] And then also I think it resonated with me this idea of portrait to

[00:06:19] landscape because our world now is so so obsessed with taking selfies.

[00:06:26] You know, so it's this idea of we're all so focused on ourselves, constantly

[00:06:31] having the frame focused at ourselves and sometimes just completely oblivious

[00:06:37] to what's going on around us.

[00:06:38] You know, so that was another idea that we turn then the gaze from

[00:06:42] ourselves outwards to this glorious community around us and really kind of

[00:06:49] embracing that.

[00:06:50] So so that's what I wanted to do in this book is to show how we can change

[00:06:56] our perspective from portrait to landscape.

[00:06:59] So so we can talk a little bit more about that.

[00:07:02] Amazing.

[00:07:03] Yeah, I mean, it's really fascinating.

[00:07:05] And I think it's really like were you influenced by Danela Meadows in

[00:07:09] your sort of framing of this?

[00:07:11] No, I wasn't.

[00:07:12] I wasn't.

[00:07:13] That's really interesting because there's something that has come up on

[00:07:15] the podcast again and again and again.

[00:07:17] And I was just talking to someone yesterday about it was the systems

[00:07:20] thinker, Danela Meadows, who wrote the book Thinking in Systems.

[00:07:24] And she has a really influential essay where she talks about the

[00:07:28] different leverage points that you can interact with a system to try and

[00:07:33] shift it into another state.

[00:07:34] And the top leverage point that she's identified is the worldview and the

[00:07:40] way that we actually inhabit the world and look at systems.

[00:07:44] And so a lot of people come at it from that perspective where they say, right,

[00:07:47] we need to change our mindsets.

[00:07:49] That kind of thing.

[00:07:50] Yes.

[00:07:50] It's interesting that you came to that conclusion from a different direction.

[00:07:53] Yeah, I know.

[00:07:54] It's really interesting.

[00:07:55] And actually like since writing the book, I've also come across Ian

[00:07:59] McGillchrist who, I don't know if you know of his work, but again,

[00:08:04] it's talking about changing this worldview and he talks about the

[00:08:08] hemispheres of the brain and how, how, because one has become sort of

[00:08:13] over prioritized then that, that we don't have that sort of more

[00:08:17] comprehensive and holistic worldview.

[00:08:20] So anyway, I think the more and more I think about this topic, there's

[00:08:26] you realize there's so many people talking about similar things.

[00:08:30] And actually I think people have been thinking about similar things

[00:08:35] for years and years too.

[00:08:37] Because one of the, one of the books that I found most interesting

[00:08:41] and helpful when I was going through my own process of writing a book

[00:08:44] was a book of letters by Einstein.

[00:08:48] And I just started sitting on my shelf and it was kind of one of those

[00:08:51] things that I never really read, but I happened to pick it up and, and be

[00:08:55] just kind of flipping through the pages while I was working on my own

[00:09:00] book and I came across this quote that I'll read to you right now

[00:09:03] because I just, I love it so much.

[00:09:05] And it really helped me kind of bring all of my ideas together in one

[00:09:12] succinct way, and he did it for me, you know, decades before.

[00:09:16] So I'll just read this quote for you.

[00:09:18] A human being is a part of a whole called by us universe, a part

[00:09:23] limited in time and space.

[00:09:26] He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from

[00:09:31] the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

[00:09:36] This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal

[00:09:41] desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.

[00:09:45] Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our

[00:09:49] circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole

[00:09:54] of nature in its beauty.

[00:09:57] So when I read that, I thought, wow, that really, that really brings

[00:10:02] together and encapsulates so beautifully kind of all of these things I've

[00:10:07] been thinking about, you know, about changing our perspective about how

[00:10:11] we go about doing that by considering ourselves as not separate and, and,

[00:10:17] and learning that we are part of nature, relearning that, you know,

[00:10:21] because I think that's just something we've forgotten.

[00:10:24] Um, and then, and then how do we do that?

[00:10:27] Well, we do that by embracing all of nature.

[00:10:30] And so that's, that's what my book kind of sets out as, as you go

[00:10:34] through it is kind of the current condition, um, you know, how we got

[00:10:40] to that point, then how we must turn our worldview and how we can go

[00:10:44] about doing that.

[00:10:45] So, um, yeah, anyway, so that, that quote was just a real catalyst for me.

[00:10:52] And, um, and another person to mention is Aldo Leopold.

[00:10:58] That I know you're fond of too.

[00:11:00] And, um, he was so inspirational to me as well through his text

[00:11:06] and his land ethic, you know, again, this is something that was

[00:11:10] written as like probably almost a century ago now, and it, it's

[00:11:14] still so relevant and, and forward thinking and progressive what he

[00:11:19] was writing at that time.

[00:11:22] Um, so he, he talked about how, you know, in our world, we have

[00:11:28] ethics that guide us as individuals, uh, you know, according to

[00:11:32] Western philosophy and religion, for example.

[00:11:36] So we might have the golden rule or, and about how we relate to

[00:11:40] each other, but we don't really have any kind of ethic that guides

[00:11:44] us in how we deal with the rest of the living community.

[00:11:49] That's that's been ignored really.

[00:11:51] And so we've gone about doing things in a way that is, you know,

[00:11:55] very dominant and conquering and destructive when it comes to

[00:12:00] dealing with the rest of the living world and asserting our dominance.

[00:12:05] So, um, you know, his, his work is just incredible in terms of how

[00:12:11] we can reposition ourselves as this one member of this much larger

[00:12:17] and beautiful living community.

[00:12:20] And then how we, you know, how we respect all those other residents

[00:12:24] of the planet.

[00:12:26] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:27] Absolutely.

[00:12:28] I mean, I think that's great.

[00:12:28] And I like that you've, you've, you've sort of made it clear

[00:12:31] that in a sense, none of this is really new and we've been

[00:12:34] talking about it for, for, for a long time and I'm always fascinated

[00:12:38] and, and I suppose very touched by, um, indigenous perspectives on

[00:12:43] our connection to nature.

[00:12:45] And, you know, like a small example of that is reading Braiding

[00:12:47] Sweetgrass by, um, um, Robin Wall Kimmerer.

[00:12:51] And, you know, she talks about the honorable harvest where if

[00:12:54] you're out foraging or gathering materials, you know, if you're

[00:12:58] looking for a particular plant, you don't take the first one you

[00:13:00] find because that might be the last one.

[00:13:02] Uh, and when you do find enough, you don't take more than half.

[00:13:06] Um, and then there's also an aspect of sort of giving something

[00:13:08] back to the earth when you take something away.

[00:13:10] So I think she talks about, you know, dropping some tobacco, uh, in

[00:13:14] the place where you've harvested, you know, that particular plant.

[00:13:17] And I think for some people that might seem like a bit, you know,

[00:13:22] sort of, uh, a bit, um, unsophisticated, but actually the

[00:13:26] ecological principles that are embedded within that around not,

[00:13:30] you know, ensuring you're not over-harvesting anything to the

[00:13:32] point that it can't reproduce itself.

[00:13:35] Um, and the fact that you're adding nutrients back into the

[00:13:38] soil when you're taking something away.

[00:13:40] So there's, there's remaining a balance there.

[00:13:42] You know, there's thousands of years of wisdom there that we need to

[00:13:46] relearn, you know, from these communities.

[00:13:49] Exactly.

[00:13:50] I think that's, that's an excellent point.

[00:13:52] I've not yet read her book, but it's on my list.

[00:13:54] It's on my list of things to read because I've heard it's very beautiful.

[00:13:58] It is.

[00:13:59] It's well worth it for sure.

[00:14:00] It's quite, it's quite long, but it's very like, it's

[00:14:03] written in a very nice prose.

[00:14:04] So yeah, it's definitely one to sit down with a, with a cup of tea.

[00:14:08] Yeah.

[00:14:09] And that notion of giving back is so important, you know, because,

[00:14:14] because everything, well, you know, when you think about the way industrial

[00:14:18] agriculture has gone over the last 50 years or so, and it's just all

[00:14:23] about kind of overproduction.

[00:14:25] How can we get this soil to produce more and more food and, you

[00:14:29] know, so pouring fertilizers in and using loads of pesticides and having

[00:14:34] monocultures and it's all about extraction.

[00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:38] Driving the earth to produce more and more when in fact we need to be

[00:14:42] giving back and we, we need to be sort of investing in the land and

[00:14:48] ensuring it's health, you know, rather than just constant pressures on it.

[00:14:53] So I think that whole principle just even, even if it's only conceptual,

[00:14:58] just, you know, the notion of dropping tobacco or something like that,

[00:15:03] even if it is only conceptual, I think it really keeps in mind, keeps kind

[00:15:09] of at the front of the mind, the importance of giving back to the earth

[00:15:12] and how you must invest and always be careful about what we're taking

[00:15:18] and giving back just the way you would in a human relationship.

[00:15:21] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:15:23] Yeah.

[00:15:23] It wouldn't be a very good relationship if you're always the

[00:15:25] one taking from someone after reciprocating.

[00:15:28] Exactly.

[00:15:29] Yeah.

[00:15:29] I mean, it's a very kind of narcissistic approach to life, isn't it?

[00:15:34] You know, the way that our society or the way, you know, Western

[00:15:38] societies in general and beyond that have approached our relationship to nature.

[00:15:45] It's extremely narcissistic.

[00:15:48] So in terms of your book, are you writing aimed at built

[00:15:52] environment professionals or you think this would be for a wider audience as well?

[00:15:56] Yeah, I wanted it to be for a wider audience.

[00:15:58] So while it is for built environment professionals, it's also meant to be

[00:16:05] for everybody because I do believe that well, for one, a lot of people are

[00:16:10] interested, there's so many people interested in environment and there's

[00:16:14] so many people concerned by what's going on currently on the planet.

[00:16:20] So there's lots of people that are interested in ideas that can help us

[00:16:24] reshape things and transform our world.

[00:16:29] So yeah, there's ideas in this book for everybody and it looks at kind of a top

[00:16:37] down to ground up approach to how we can go about restoring the earth.

[00:16:43] Should I outline maybe a little bit of that?

[00:16:46] Yeah, go for it.

[00:16:46] Okay.

[00:16:48] So well, yeah.

[00:16:51] So I wrote the book in four major parts and actually when I was going

[00:16:56] about the process of starting to write the book, I was like, oh man, you

[00:16:59] know, I've never written a book before.

[00:17:02] How do I even go about this process?

[00:17:04] I didn't really have a clue where to begin and you know, I've done a lot

[00:17:08] of writing in my career, but never a book.

[00:17:11] So I thought, okay, well what I do know how to write is a landscape

[00:17:14] strategy, so let's start with that.

[00:17:16] And I can use that kind of format where I lay out the vision and then I

[00:17:22] move into the assessment and kind of looking at the existing conditions, then

[00:17:27] setting out the design principles and then moving into sort of the key moves

[00:17:32] and your design proposal.

[00:17:35] So I thought, okay, well let's try and structure it like that.

[00:17:37] So that's what I did and it really helped me kind of get my head

[00:17:41] around pulling all these ideas together.

[00:17:45] And so the first is called vision.

[00:17:47] The first part is called vision.

[00:17:49] And I actually use Einstein's quote there to set out kind of three main

[00:17:57] elements of that vision.

[00:17:59] So acknowledging that our global issues stem from this delusion of separateness

[00:18:06] that he outlines, this optical delusion of separateness and then the

[00:18:10] importance of liberating ourselves from that delusion of separateness.

[00:18:16] And then to do that, that our task and, you know, he even says our task must be.

[00:18:22] So he sets out this task to widen our circle of compassion to all of nature.

[00:18:27] So that's kind of the vision that I use to think about the shift in

[00:18:34] perspective and this way that we can integrate our way of thinking to deal

[00:18:42] with a much broader living community to go about healing the earth.

[00:18:46] And then the second part of the strategy is looking at the big picture.

[00:18:50] So here I really delve into, okay, well what's the current state of things?

[00:18:54] What's the state of the environment?

[00:18:57] What does the scientific community have to tell us about this?

[00:19:01] You know, how bad is it?

[00:19:03] What are the planetary boundaries that we're looking at?

[00:19:06] I don't know if you're familiar with Johann Rockström and his nine

[00:19:11] planetary boundaries, but they're extremely helpful too, to kind of get an

[00:19:15] indication of where we are and how urgent things, you know, are globally.

[00:19:22] So I look at that and then looking at, well, how did we even get to this place?

[00:19:28] You know, why, what is it about humanity that has caused us

[00:19:32] to go down this certain path?

[00:19:34] How did we get here?

[00:19:35] And so I kind of lay out, it's a huge topic in itself that can

[00:19:39] easily be more complex, you know, or more anyway.

[00:19:43] So I just try and do that kind of briefly, you know, thinking about Western

[00:19:49] philosophy, scientific ideas, how religion has worked into that and,

[00:19:53] and kind of then set us up to think of ourselves as dominant and superior

[00:19:58] over other life forms and that sort of thing.

[00:20:00] And that in itself has caused all sorts of issues.

[00:20:05] So anyway, and then at the end of that kind of look at the bigger picture,

[00:20:10] I did want to kind of, you know, it can be really overwhelming and very gloomy.

[00:20:14] So, um, I did want us to remember that the biosphere is an amazing, an

[00:20:20] amazing sort of, um, unified organism that actually has capacity for self

[00:20:26] renewal, if only we allow it to be able to take care of itself, but at

[00:20:33] the moment, because we're just dumping so much garbage, so much rubbish

[00:20:38] and toxins and pollution that, that has just become oversaturated with,

[00:20:43] with this horrible stuff.

[00:20:45] So we need to, you know, we need to step back and just allow

[00:20:48] the biosphere to heal itself.

[00:20:50] Um, so I talk about that and then I move into the third section

[00:20:56] about defining landscape.

[00:20:58] And here is where I talk about, well, what actually is landscape?

[00:21:03] And, you know, the, the fact that it's always transforming and

[00:21:06] shifting and it can be reshaped.

[00:21:09] And that's one of the most beautiful elements about landscape

[00:21:13] is this element of change.

[00:21:15] So, you know, there's so much possibility in landscape.

[00:21:18] It's, it's always reforming and it can become something much more than

[00:21:22] beautiful and integrated in the future, um, because it has this capacity to do

[00:21:27] so.

[00:21:28] And, uh, and so I set out these overarching design principles here

[00:21:33] then that really, um, involve focusing on the land.

[00:21:40] So focusing on soils, water and air.

[00:21:43] And if we can get these three things right, if we can bring those three

[00:21:47] things back to health, then that sort of takes care of everything else.

[00:21:52] Cause if we have healthy soils, if we have, you know, healthy food to eat,

[00:21:57] um, you know, healthy soils that plants can grow in.

[00:22:00] If we have fresh air to breathe, if we have fresh water to drink, then all

[00:22:05] of the other things that sort of fall into place.

[00:22:08] So we really need to be focusing on those three key elements.

[00:22:11] And I would say that not just, not just in rural and wilderness

[00:22:15] environments, but also in urban environments.

[00:22:18] That needs to be really highlighted.

[00:22:20] And then finally, uh, the key moves I set out.

[00:22:24] So this is kind of like the design proposal, but in this case, it's

[00:22:27] kind of looking at policies, like everything from legislation to planning

[00:22:31] policies, to a landscape led approach, to looking at how we kind of include,

[00:22:38] um, uh, these ideas in the education system and skilling up so that we have

[00:22:45] a workforce that is, that is capable of taking on restoration of the planet.

[00:22:52] And then looking at what we as individuals can do daily, you know,

[00:22:56] just sort of integrating habits into our own life that, that will help

[00:23:00] to bring about this transformation.

[00:23:02] So that's how the book is set out.

[00:23:04] That's amazing.

[00:23:05] Thank you for that.

[00:23:05] I think, I think what I really appreciate about it is that it's propositional.

[00:23:09] You know, you didn't, you didn't stop after the doom and gloom

[00:23:12] analysis in chapter two, you know, you sort of took, cause that's,

[00:23:16] that's a lot of the issue with, I think, environmental writing and

[00:23:18] communication a lot of the time is it, we've been very good at discussing

[00:23:22] the problems, but not very good at proposing, you know, responses to

[00:23:26] the problem.

[00:23:27] So that's the, I suppose the designer in you saying, right, we have

[00:23:31] the analysis now what do we do with it?

[00:23:34] Well, that's right.

[00:23:35] Yeah.

[00:23:36] And so, I mean, that, that's the important part too, that I feel

[00:23:39] that as, as you say, we, we know we're just inundated with this

[00:23:43] doom and gloom message and you know, it's true and we need to be hearing

[00:23:47] it, but then we also, uh, as you were saying, especially as, as

[00:23:51] people involved in the creative industries need to be thinking about,

[00:23:54] well then how do we, how do we change this?

[00:23:57] You know, because as we know, it's often the challenges, it's

[00:24:01] often the greatest challenges that create the biggest opportunities.

[00:24:05] So there's huge potential for change and, and to convert these

[00:24:11] terrible problems into huge opportunities.

[00:24:14] If only we could sort of change our vision.

[00:24:17] So, um, you know, while I know that my ideas that the strategy I have put

[00:24:25] forward will definitely fall short.

[00:24:27] And, um, you know, it's only the beginning really, but I suppose I felt

[00:24:34] there is enough there to at least get going and for people to see that

[00:24:38] there are definite and, and, um, you know, specific steps that can be

[00:24:42] taken to at least start moving us in the right direction.

[00:24:47] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:24:48] Um, can you maybe just to sort of bring it to life for people, I suppose?

[00:24:52] Cause I think this, this sort of large landscape level of thinking is

[00:24:55] maybe a bit different to what many people listening might be used to

[00:24:59] even in their own practice, they might be architects or, or, you

[00:25:02] know, planners listening who are used to working on a smaller scale.

[00:25:05] Um, do you have any examples of what that might look like?

[00:25:09] Uh, maybe case studies or maybe just examples of the types of

[00:25:11] interventions, um, that might involve?

[00:25:14] Sure.

[00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:16] Um, well actually in the book, I do use a number of case studies because

[00:25:20] they are so helpful, aren't they?

[00:25:21] To, to really understanding what an idea is all about.

[00:25:25] And I suppose for me, um, one of the most important projects that

[00:25:30] I've been involved in is, um, it was called the South Essex green

[00:25:35] and blue infrastructure study.

[00:25:37] So that was a project that my team and I began in 2019.

[00:25:43] So we were commissioned by the association of South Essex local authorities.

[00:25:48] So, um, they, they're a group of all the South Essex local authorities.

[00:25:54] So there's six of them plus Essex County council and they realized

[00:26:01] that they needed to collaborate.

[00:26:03] They needed to come together to form a much larger and sort of grander

[00:26:09] um, collaborative framework to address so many challenges that they

[00:26:14] were facing in their region.

[00:26:16] Um, so challenges to do with a lot of, um, community deprivation.

[00:26:24] There's a lot of challenges with connectivity and transportation,

[00:26:28] huge amount of pollution.

[00:26:30] You know, all of London's waste has gone into the South Essex region,

[00:26:35] you know, for decades.

[00:26:37] There's loads of landfills there, loads of industry.

[00:26:40] There's ports.

[00:26:42] Um, there's threat of sea level rise all along that coastline.

[00:26:47] There's North sea storm surges that are, you know,

[00:26:51] with increasing severity.

[00:26:52] There's also fluvial flooding.

[00:26:54] So flooding throughout the region itself because of the

[00:26:57] rivers and the, and the streams in there.

[00:26:59] Um, they're also dealing with drought at the same time, you know?

[00:27:04] So apparently there's more drought there even than in Athens.

[00:27:09] Um, yeah, I mean, it's incredible.

[00:27:11] You never would think that, but this is true.

[00:27:14] And, uh, anyway, so, but at the same time they have been earmarked and

[00:27:20] targeted to be a growth region by the federal government.

[00:27:24] So they need to produce a lot more housing and jobs.

[00:27:27] And, and so, so with all of these challenges that they were facing,

[00:27:32] they knew, they knew they needed something that would be overarching.

[00:27:35] And so, you know, good on them for recognizing that.

[00:27:39] And so, so they were looking to pull together a spatial framework

[00:27:42] and that included, um, five key programs.

[00:27:46] So one was housing, one was transportation.

[00:27:48] There was digital and anyway there, and then green and blue infrastructure.

[00:27:52] They had identified it as another key program.

[00:27:55] So, so we were commissioned to do that study and, um, not

[00:28:00] recognizing really when we began just how important and exciting

[00:28:07] this project would be, um, because when we started delving into the

[00:28:12] information and finding out all these things, you know, at the beginning,

[00:28:15] I didn't know that, that they were faced with all these issues of sea level.

[00:28:19] You know, sea level rise, massive loss of important habitats is, um,

[00:28:25] you know, all along there because of the bird life that that's, and

[00:28:29] because it's the estuary, there's a huge amount of triple SIs.

[00:28:33] There's nature reserves, you know, there's a lot of really important

[00:28:36] nature sites that are also under threat of being lost if sea level rise

[00:28:41] happens and there's nowhere for these habitats to shift to, you know,

[00:28:45] because of development coming towards the water, if sea level rise happens,

[00:28:49] there's, you know, the, the habitats can't move inland.

[00:28:53] So, so, so that's why there would be possibly huge losses.

[00:28:58] So, um, all of these things we kind of learned along the way.

[00:29:02] And it was like, wow, we really need to do something that is big and

[00:29:07] bold and, um, will really make meaningful change.

[00:29:12] And so as we started discovering all these things and we did this through

[00:29:16] a lot of layering of information.

[00:29:18] So looking at geology and soils and habitats and, you know,

[00:29:22] layering all this information, um, and looking at, at it in relationship

[00:29:28] to each other.

[00:29:29] So seeing kind of where these key points of conflict are and where,

[00:29:33] where the key opportunity sites are, um, by doing that and then, you

[00:29:38] know, speaking that through with the client team, we realized, okay,

[00:29:42] we need to do something really big here.

[00:29:43] So we need to set out a very comprehensive, um, green and blue

[00:29:48] infrastructure that is much more than, you know, integrating

[00:29:53] SUDs or something like that.

[00:29:56] This is looking at a robust regional framework.

[00:29:59] And so what we did there was set aside 30% of the land area for nature

[00:30:04] recovery.

[00:30:06] Um, and that was actually before, uh, the nature recovery scheme came into

[00:30:13] place through the environment act.

[00:30:14] So it was really interesting because a lot of what we were doing there

[00:30:18] then aligned with what the environment acts said we needed to do later on.

[00:30:23] So we had, yeah, so, so yeah, so putting in place.

[00:30:28] So what we did was we kind of, we, we identified five major landscapes

[00:30:34] throughout the whole region.

[00:30:35] So the region is 70,000 hectares.

[00:30:38] And so we identified 24,000 hectares throughout that needed to be

[00:30:42] protected and managed very carefully.

[00:30:47] And so these include, um, already existing parks, already existing

[00:30:51] nature reserves, but then also, um, some agricultural lands that could have a

[00:30:57] lot of nature restoration involved.

[00:31:00] Um, it also looked at industrial sites that could be rehabilitated, you

[00:31:04] know, former industrial sites that could then be rehabilitated to become part

[00:31:08] of this major nature network.

[00:31:11] Um, so anyway, so in the end we had a really robust structure that

[00:31:15] was then connected by another series of greenways and blueways that would

[00:31:21] connect, um, across the whole region as well.

[00:31:25] So, um, that strategy is available online if people want to take a look,

[00:31:30] it's all publicly available and we've carried on with working on some of,

[00:31:35] um, just looking at a demonstration project that is within Thurrock

[00:31:39] along the coastline there.

[00:31:41] So that is currently underway.

[00:31:44] And, uh, we're also going in for funding with the Thames Estuary Growth Board to

[00:31:50] hopefully get enough funding to deliver this because it is, it is a big thing,

[00:31:55] but it's right in line with, as I said, with what the government is

[00:31:58] looking to do with nature recovery.

[00:32:01] So absolutely.

[00:32:02] And I think, I mean, this sort of strategic level planning is sort of

[00:32:06] needs to be happening all across the country really.

[00:32:09] Um, and it's really missing, I feel in the UK.

[00:32:12] Um, as you were doing this sort of landscape strategy, was it also tying

[00:32:16] in with, um, areas for housing growth and new towns and that kind of thing?

[00:32:24] Yeah, that that's exactly right.

[00:32:25] So part of this, um, I think what you said just before that too, about

[00:32:31] how the UK is missing these kinds of regional strategies, I think that

[00:32:36] became more and more clear to me as we went through this process.

[00:32:38] And it was another reason why I wanted to write this book was because

[00:32:42] what became so clear is that in the UK and then also in many countries

[00:32:47] around the world, there isn't this kind of level of regional landscape thinking.

[00:32:53] Going on.

[00:32:54] And yet it's at that regional level and at that, well, you know, at a

[00:32:58] watershed level, for instance, where we need to be thinking about land, but

[00:33:03] typically it is not considered.

[00:33:05] So, you know, we're typically looking at things on a plot by plot basis.

[00:33:10] And of course nature doesn't care about plot boundaries, you know,

[00:33:14] water, water will flow where it flows.

[00:33:16] It doesn't care if there's a boundary line shown on a map.

[00:33:19] So, um, we really need to be considering things at a much larger

[00:33:24] scale and then putting in place these strategies and having it

[00:33:27] integrated into our policies that can then be adopted by local plans.

[00:33:31] You know, so, um, yes, I think, oh, now I'm, now I'm forgetting

[00:33:37] the second part of your question.

[00:33:38] Can you remind me?

[00:33:39] Um, about how it integrated with the new areas for housing?

[00:33:43] Oh yeah.

[00:33:44] So, so that's another wonderful thing that it can do.

[00:33:47] So if you have a landscape strategy that sets out all of the most

[00:33:52] sensitive areas of landscape, so, um, that will also set out for you

[00:33:56] areas that should not be developed and then areas that are much more

[00:34:00] appropriate for development.

[00:34:02] So, for example, um, we shouldn't really be developing any of

[00:34:07] our wetlands or marshes.

[00:34:09] Those should not be converted to farm lands or to housing or to industry.

[00:34:14] We, we have such a lack of wetlands globally now.

[00:34:19] And also because of flooding and sea level rise, you know, these

[00:34:24] areas will probably be inundated soon with water leading to then

[00:34:29] massive risks to property and to lives in those areas.

[00:34:34] So if you have a landscape strategy that already shows you, um, what

[00:34:39] areas need protection, then it also makes very clear what areas

[00:34:44] are appropriate for development.

[00:34:45] And so it shows how the two can work in a very complimentary way.

[00:34:50] One's supporting the other.

[00:34:52] So, you know, the nature areas then kind of bringing health and wellbeing

[00:34:56] and protection even to those areas of development.

[00:35:01] So, yeah, in, in, um, the South Essex plan, then we were able to show how

[00:35:05] development then can then be very sensitively and beautifully kind of

[00:35:10] integrated into this, um, much larger network of nature spaces.

[00:35:15] Yeah.

[00:35:15] Fantastic.

[00:35:17] Um, I think on the, on the policy and, um, more, uh, legislation

[00:35:23] side of things, just we've mentioned the, um, the environment act and biodiversity

[00:35:27] net gain and that kind of thing.

[00:35:28] And I think this is very interesting in, you know, you have to give props

[00:35:32] to the UK for being, you know, I think the first country in the world to put

[00:35:35] forward a legislation like this that mandates that new development must

[00:35:39] provide 10% biodiversity net gain as a minimum.

[00:35:43] Um, I'd be very interested to know from your, uh, I don't know, obviously

[00:35:47] in principle, this is a really great thing.

[00:35:49] Um, I'd be interested to know in print, you know, in your

[00:35:52] practice, how are you finding this working in reality?

[00:35:57] Yeah.

[00:35:57] Well, um, yeah, thanks for bringing BNG up.

[00:36:01] I think it's a really important subject and, um, you know, I've been

[00:36:06] listening to professor David Hill quite a lot because he's the, he's

[00:36:10] the person that brought this idea to the fore at least a couple of

[00:36:15] decades ago and has been working to get it into policy for, you know,

[00:36:20] the last couple of decades.

[00:36:21] And now it finally has, but the idea, um, the idea for biodiversity net

[00:36:26] gain, um, the way it's being implemented now is mostly on site.

[00:36:33] So within a particular development plot and there's opportunity for

[00:36:39] doing some biodiversity net gain offsite, but this currently

[00:36:43] isn't happening very often.

[00:36:45] So this is what we're already seeing.

[00:36:47] Cause there were a number of projects that were, um, undertaken

[00:36:51] that incorporated biodiversity net gain even sort of ahead of the

[00:36:54] legislation.

[00:36:55] So some of the early adopters, some of the developers or local

[00:36:59] authorities that adopted these ideas early.

[00:37:02] And so we can see the outcome of some of this and what it's showing

[00:37:06] us is that, um, you know, biodiversity net gain is typically

[00:37:12] happening within a plot.

[00:37:14] And so, so what, what the outcome there is are kind of really intense

[00:37:22] ecologically focused areas, but also areas that have a lot of human

[00:37:26] activity involved in them.

[00:37:28] So they're sort of under high stress, I would say.

[00:37:32] And then if the developer leaves and is no longer maintaining that

[00:37:37] area, then within five years, those biodiversity net gain benefits

[00:37:44] are depleted.

[00:37:45] So, you know, a key, a key component of this legislation is that, um,

[00:37:52] the biodiversity be maintained and managed for a period of 30 years,

[00:37:57] but currently there's not, well, most local authorities don't have

[00:38:03] that kind of funding and the sort of resources available or even

[00:38:08] maybe the skill base to carry that out.

[00:38:10] Yeah.

[00:38:11] So, so well, yeah, exactly.

[00:38:14] So there's no, um, well, there's typically not enforcement happening.

[00:38:18] That's what, that's what is becoming quite obvious.

[00:38:21] And so then the benefits are quickly, um, they quickly fall away.

[00:38:27] Yeah.

[00:38:27] And, and it's really in the offsite.

[00:38:30] So I think even David Hill would say this was that was where the real

[00:38:35] benefits were seen to be possible.

[00:38:39] It would be if then, for example, a developer didn't have space within

[00:38:43] their own plot to bring about those benefits that they would then be

[00:38:47] funded in another site, uh, for example, at a local nature reserve

[00:38:53] to extend that area and to create kind of larger networks and connections.

[00:38:59] Um, of biodiversity and habitats to support biodiversity.

[00:39:03] So that is really where I think it needs to be going again.

[00:39:08] If, if we had these regional landscape strategies, it would be so much easier

[00:39:13] than for local government to know exactly where these, um, where these BNG credits

[00:39:21] should go, you know, provide them a plan and direction at the moment.

[00:39:25] It's happening a little bit haphazardly.

[00:39:27] Another thing that is happening is that habitats that are easier

[00:39:31] to create are being, um, you know, those are the ones that are being prioritized.

[00:39:37] So for example, grasslands or species rich grasslands or something like that.

[00:39:43] While really important, um, they may not always be appropriate or they're also

[00:39:50] the ones that tend to get more funding because they're easier to deliver.

[00:39:53] Whereas something like a wetland might not be as easy to deliver that is,

[00:39:58] you know, really required, but we're not seeing so many of those being developed.

[00:40:03] So, so that's another issue that's happening.

[00:40:06] I mean, there's quite a few, there's quite a number of issues, I think,

[00:40:09] that are coming to the fore and that aren't really surprising considering,

[00:40:14] um, as I said, you know, nature isn't bound by plots.

[00:40:18] And so to try and squeeze in benefits within defined boundaries is very,

[00:40:24] very difficult.

[00:40:26] Yeah.

[00:40:26] And I think it's, I think it has to be said that, you know, as much,

[00:40:30] as much development may be happening in the UK that, you know, doing that

[00:40:35] by the racing neck gain on development sites alone is not what's going to be

[00:40:38] the bounce back for nature, you know, in, in Britain.

[00:40:42] And there has to be that wider landscape perspective.

[00:40:45] Um, something I'm perhaps hopeful of, um, is part of the legislation as well

[00:40:49] is that all the, every county in England has to put together a nature

[00:40:55] recovery strategy for the county.

[00:40:57] And so that is sort of now taking a landscape scale perspective on it.

[00:41:01] Um, and hopefully that means local authorities and, uh, figuring out how new

[00:41:08] development fits in with the wider landscape and the wider biodiversity

[00:41:12] recovery, um, strategy, you know, as part of that.

[00:41:15] So we'll have to see they're all, they're all under,

[00:41:18] under, um, form, formulation at the moment.

[00:41:20] So we'll have to just keep our fingers crossed and hope,

[00:41:24] hope they work well.

[00:41:25] I think you're right.

[00:41:26] And I think, you know, even though, even though there are some issues

[00:41:29] with biodiversity net gain, it's just wonderful that there is this focus on

[00:41:34] it now and that there is at least a starting point.

[00:41:38] So, and as you say now with these nature recovery strategies coming into play,

[00:41:43] that again will raise the bar to another level.

[00:41:46] There's also the environmental land management schemes.

[00:41:49] So integrating nature conservation within agricultural lands as well.

[00:41:55] That's another aspect of the environment act and which is incredibly

[00:41:59] important because, um, within the UK alone, about 70% of the land is

[00:42:06] agricultural.

[00:42:07] And so if you imagine that 70% of that, of the UK, if that 70% were then

[00:42:13] working, um, to support local wildlife and to, you know, improve nature

[00:42:19] conservation as well as being, um, productive in terms of food production.

[00:42:25] And actually the two tend to work very well in relation to each other.

[00:42:30] You know, if you have, if you have a healthy functioning ecosystem within a

[00:42:35] farmland, that farm tends to be much more productive because then all the

[00:42:40] systems, you know, the water, the soils, everything is, is more healthy

[00:42:45] and thriving.

[00:42:46] So, um, so that's something too, but, but from what I understand that

[00:42:53] there's, there's loads of farmers now that are interested in that kind of

[00:42:56] approach.

[00:42:57] But what is very difficult is transitioning from sort of the

[00:43:01] industrial agriculture where we see, you know, a lot of intensive use

[00:43:07] fertilizers, pesticides, monocultures, and then trying to transition from

[00:43:13] that into more regenerative farming can be, can be very costly for these

[00:43:19] farmers, even if they want to do it.

[00:43:21] They might not have the means to do so.

[00:43:22] And that funding still isn't really very available from the government.

[00:43:27] There's funding once you are in that place, you know, to support these

[00:43:32] management schemes, these land management schemes, but that

[00:43:34] transition I think is what is very difficult.

[00:43:37] So again, that, that hopefully will be something that comes to the

[00:43:42] foreign, you know, is brought to light as, um, as the environment act

[00:43:48] legislation really has kind of played out, but that will take some time.

[00:43:53] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:43:54] Yeah.

[00:43:54] Um, let's, I'd be interested to think about, uh, urban environments

[00:43:59] a little bit more on how some of this thinking applies, you know, in

[00:44:02] cities for instance.

[00:44:03] Mm.

[00:44:04] Yeah.

[00:44:05] Well, going back to what I mentioned earlier about thinking about soils,

[00:44:11] water and air, and I think so often times, especially soil, we talk,

[00:44:17] we talk all the time about soils and in farmlands or, um, you know,

[00:44:23] maybe in wilderness areas, but most people I think forget that

[00:44:27] there's even soil in cities.

[00:44:31] Typically we're so disconnected from the soil in a city.

[00:44:34] You know, if you consider a typical street with buildings lining it,

[00:44:39] most of the time there's no exposed soil is just, you know, building line

[00:44:45] pavement and then, you know, crossing the road, more pavement curb,

[00:44:50] more pavement building.

[00:44:51] And if you're lucky, you might get a little hole for a tree to

[00:44:55] try and struggle to survive.

[00:44:58] And even then you don't really see much soil.

[00:45:01] So, um, you know, I think that the condition of soils in urban

[00:45:07] areas is even worse, you know, when in the built environment, soils

[00:45:13] are just scoured away, you know, this, this wonderful top soil that

[00:45:17] exists is removed, um, any soil that does remain is typically just

[00:45:22] paved over and, um, so we don't have this connection to the land.

[00:45:28] And, and I think that's quite tragic in that there's been quite a lot of,

[00:45:34] um, focus in recent years on integrating sustainable urban drainage systems

[00:45:40] into our streetscapes, for example.

[00:45:42] Um, and that is a big move forward, but I think along with that, we

[00:45:45] need to be also prioritizing soil.

[00:45:49] So, you know, for example, um, when I started working in Vancouver,

[00:45:56] this was like 25 years ago, I worked for the Greenways department here.

[00:46:01] And it was a super innovative department.

[00:46:04] Um, and I didn't realize at that time because I was just brand

[00:46:09] new out of university, it was my first job.

[00:46:12] I had no idea how innovative this was because it was everything

[00:46:15] I'd been learning in university.

[00:46:17] And then when I went to work, what we were doing was designing

[00:46:22] and implementing green routes through the city.

[00:46:24] So for pedestrians and cyclists.

[00:46:28] Um, and so we were incorporating all of these great sustainable

[00:46:32] and innovative strategies.

[00:46:33] So for example, narrowing pavements so that we could increase

[00:46:37] permeability on the street, integrating, uh, local planting,

[00:46:42] utilizing sustainable urban drainage and swales, um, to allow, you

[00:46:48] know, stormwater to flow off into these areas and naturally filter.

[00:46:54] Um, so we were doing all of these things and actually it was shown

[00:46:59] to not be any more expensive than to design a street in the typical

[00:47:04] way with just loads of pavement.

[00:47:08] And I want to tell you about this example in particular, because

[00:47:11] it just highlights the importance of just redesigning one street.

[00:47:15] So this one in Vancouver, um, it was housing on one side

[00:47:20] and then the other side was a park.

[00:47:23] And so it was a group of us.

[00:47:25] So it's landscape architects, engineers, um, planners and the local

[00:47:30] community working together to design this street.

[00:47:34] And as I said, you know, we, we did all of those things.

[00:47:36] And at the end of the street was a stream that had been

[00:47:40] culverted, I think a number of decades ago.

[00:47:44] And it was actually exposed on either side of this culvert, but

[00:47:48] the culvert went below the road.

[00:47:50] And, um, so that culvert was actually, uh, revised a little bit too.

[00:47:58] So it was made larger and made a little bit more, um, habitable

[00:48:03] and safer for stream life.

[00:48:06] But then also in combination with the changes that were made to the street,

[00:48:11] because no longer did you have all of the stormwater rushing into the

[00:48:16] storm drain and then piped into the stream and then just, you know,

[00:48:20] exiting the pipe in a big gush that scours the stream bed.

[00:48:25] Rather you had the water going into these swales.

[00:48:29] And then at the end of the road, there was an attenuation basin

[00:48:32] where the water could then settle and filter slowly and then enter

[00:48:36] the stream slowly in a purified way as well.

[00:48:40] And because of these changes, the next year salmon were found in the

[00:48:46] stream.

[00:48:47] Oh, wow.

[00:48:47] Just like that.

[00:48:48] So quickly.

[00:48:49] Yep.

[00:48:50] Amazing.

[00:48:50] So, you know, just immediately the salmon knew that it was a safe

[00:48:54] place for them to traverse again and to spawn.

[00:48:58] Incredible.

[00:48:58] So, you know, so these changes do make huge differences.

[00:49:03] And I think it's important for people to, to know that because so

[00:49:07] often, I think even as designers, we can think, oh, well, it's, you know,

[00:49:11] maybe it's not that important if it's going to be difficult because

[00:49:14] there's a utility in the way or whatever.

[00:49:17] And so, so maybe it's easy to give up sometimes.

[00:49:21] Um, but actually, you know, these are things that can have massive

[00:49:26] impacts environmentally.

[00:49:28] And especially when you think that if that was this one street, if that

[00:49:31] was done everywhere throughout the city, the change that could happen is

[00:49:35] enormous.

[00:49:36] So, you know, I'm, I'm really for the talk about utilities, um, trenching

[00:49:45] utilities rather than trenching the trees, for example.

[00:49:49] Right.

[00:49:50] So I think we've got it backwards.

[00:49:51] We put, you know, that even the terminology we use tree pits, like,

[00:49:56] why would, why would we put a tree in a pit?

[00:49:58] You know, it's awful.

[00:50:02] Trees are these glorious, magnificent life forms.

[00:50:05] And here we have them stuck in these tiny little holes in the ground with

[00:50:09] barricades all around them.

[00:50:11] Really, we should have the utilities in the trench and that can be done.

[00:50:15] And we do it on our projects wherever we can.

[00:50:18] So we put the utilities in a trench and they have to be coordinated.

[00:50:22] And then you open up loads of space to have healthy soils, linear strips

[00:50:28] of trees and other planting, you know, then you can have the water flowing

[00:50:31] into the ground and suddenly just by making this small change.

[00:50:35] But again, it's like a shift in perspective.

[00:50:37] No, we don't need to be trenching the trees.

[00:50:40] We need to be trenching utilities.

[00:50:42] And then suddenly, um, suddenly the whole approach to a street can change.

[00:50:47] And so many more opportunities come about.

[00:50:50] Yeah, I love that.

[00:50:50] And I think, you know, we haven't even mentioned like all the

[00:50:53] benefits to humans of doing that in terms of, you know, the

[00:50:56] East urban heat island mitigation and reducing flooding and all that stuff.

[00:50:59] Like it's very much in our interest to be doing these things as well.

[00:51:03] Exactly.

[00:51:03] I mean, the amount of people I know in London that have had their flats

[00:51:07] flooded or something, you know, and you know, well, that could have been

[00:51:10] overcome if, if only we had had these areas for water to go, but there

[00:51:16] there's just nowhere for water to go most of the time.

[00:51:19] Yeah.

[00:51:19] Now it's up for into a little hole.

[00:51:20] And then if that hole gets plugged, then, you know.

[00:51:25] Yeah.

[00:51:25] And I think we often when there is like, let's say sustainable

[00:51:29] drainage interventions put in, I feel like they're done quite opportunistically.

[00:51:33] So maybe there's some funding from a development.

[00:51:34] So it happens on this street, but that there isn't always the, the, again,

[00:51:39] the landscape level thinking of actually where is the most important places to

[00:51:42] put it so that, you know, we're getting the water flows right.

[00:51:45] And all that kind of stuff.

[00:51:46] Well, that's right.

[00:51:47] It needs to be considered strategically and it also needs to become the

[00:51:51] norm that that isn't sort of the special case, this is just the normal case.

[00:51:56] And, um, and then another, another key element I would mention that is very

[00:52:02] difficult for designers to control, but it's something that our clients can

[00:52:06] really think about more and that is coordinating utilities.

[00:52:11] So at the moment, because we have in, in the UK, um, you know,

[00:52:17] different water companies and you've got, you know, for example, someone

[00:52:21] else dealing with, um, fiber optics or, and these are all privately owned

[00:52:26] communities, so they're all coming in, digging up the road and, and sort of

[00:52:32] destroying things that then need to be repaired constantly.

[00:52:35] So there's no coordination, but in many cities around the world,

[00:52:38] those utilities are coordinated.

[00:52:40] So for example, in Vancouver, where I was mentioning before we would go

[00:52:45] in and design a greenway and have that implemented, um, there would be a

[00:52:51] whole coordination, um, sort of program that would go into place.

[00:52:57] So everything, all the piping and everything that needed to happen,

[00:53:00] anything that needed updating or improving happened in the couple of

[00:53:05] years before the implementation of the new greenway.

[00:53:07] And so there wasn't so much waste and there wasn't destruction of,

[00:53:11] of the new streetscape and that sort of thing.

[00:53:14] I guess I'm focusing on streets too, because they actually are about

[00:53:18] 25% of most urban land area.

[00:53:21] And so if you just imagine that 25% of cities could be transformed,

[00:53:27] that is a massive impact.

[00:53:29] That doesn't include the parks and gardens and public plazas and,

[00:53:34] you know, that's just the streets.

[00:53:37] So, um, so that could have a massive significant impact.

[00:53:42] Yeah, totally agree.

[00:53:43] We would just really focus on streets.

[00:53:46] We're, uh, we're coming to the end of our time here and I could

[00:53:48] keep chatting to you for hours, but I'll try and wrap, we'll try and

[00:53:51] wrap it up in the next 10 minutes or so.

[00:53:53] Um, would you have any sort of final advice for, for built environment

[00:53:57] practitioners, particularly who are, who are listening to this on sort of

[00:54:00] how they can take these ideas and start creating positive change?

[00:54:05] Hmm.

[00:54:06] Um, yeah, well, I suppose for anybody working in the built

[00:54:12] environment, I would say, do always keep in mind that broader community of life.

[00:54:19] You know, sometimes I like to say, well, how often do we think of urban

[00:54:23] design from the perspective of a different life form, you know,

[00:54:27] we're always thinking about urban design from our own perspective,

[00:54:31] from a human perspective.

[00:54:32] And that is very important.

[00:54:34] I mean, typically in the past, it was from a vehicle's perspective.

[00:54:38] Right.

[00:54:38] Now it's, now it's more about a people oriented approach typically, but I

[00:54:43] would like to extend that out even further and say, okay, well, what,

[00:54:46] what is it like for the soil?

[00:54:49] What's it like for the water?

[00:54:51] What's this urban design like for the air?

[00:54:54] You know, what's it like for the local wildlife?

[00:54:56] What's it like for that bird in the sky?

[00:54:58] You know, can we design something that is meeting the needs

[00:55:05] of all of these life forms?

[00:55:06] And we can.

[00:55:07] You know, we can do that.

[00:55:09] So I guess that that's something I would like people to always be thinking

[00:55:13] about what, what's it like from another life forms perspective to always have

[00:55:18] that kind of in the back of your mind and then to focus on those three key

[00:55:23] elements of soil, water, and air, and just thinking about everything that you're

[00:55:27] doing in terms of those three elements.

[00:55:30] Is this working?

[00:55:32] You know, what can I do to preserve the soils?

[00:55:34] What, you know, in this construction project, we're going to be stripping

[00:55:38] all this topsoil away, for example.

[00:55:40] Well, is there something else we can do?

[00:55:42] Can we somehow preserve it?

[00:55:44] Can we reuse it?

[00:55:46] Can it, can it be stored in a certain way that maintains its vitality?

[00:55:52] You know, how do we, how do we work with the water in this area?

[00:55:56] And thinking about that larger watershed, you know, which area should

[00:56:02] we avoid, which areas need to be protected and just to have in mind all of these,

[00:56:09] all of these connections to the land itself and the foundation, the

[00:56:14] foundation of development and how we can bring about the health of that

[00:56:19] foundation, that to really improve the long-term health of the

[00:56:23] development itself too.

[00:56:25] Yeah.

[00:56:25] Fantastic.

[00:56:26] I think that's great.

[00:56:27] That's a, that's a great point to end on.

[00:56:28] And I'll have links to your book and your website in the episode description.

[00:56:33] But if you'd like to point people towards anything, you can let them know.

[00:56:38] All right.

[00:56:39] Well, so our, our company's website is alexandrestedeurban.com.

[00:56:45] And the book again is Portrait to Landscape.

[00:56:47] It's available on Amazon and on many audio platforms as well.

[00:56:52] Great.

[00:56:53] Amazing.

[00:56:54] Okay.

[00:56:54] Thank you so much.

[00:56:55] We'll close it up there.

[00:56:55] Thank you.