#86: Regenerative Architecture Index - Accelerating towards a regenerative built environment

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Green Urbanist, podcast for urbanists fighting climate change. I'm Ross.

[00:00:24] Hello and welcome back to another episode Ross here. Today's episode is a conversation with

[00:00:29] Alistair Ben Dixon and Annalisa McSweeney. I'm Alistair, I'm the co-founder of Collective

[00:00:33] Works. We're a small practice doing our best to engage with complex world around us and deliver

[00:00:39] what is hopefully some beautifully responsible design. I'm also a steering group member with

[00:00:44] Architects Declare. I'm Annalisa. I am the UK Head of Sustainability for White Architects

[00:00:50] though and gather Alistair on the steering group for Architects Declare. Later in the episode

[00:00:56] you'll also hear from Isabel Allen who is the editor of Architecture Today.

[00:01:02] So the topic of our conversation is the Regenerative Architecture Index. This is being

[00:01:07] launched at the moment by Architecture Today and UK Architects Declare and the idea of the

[00:01:13] Regenerative Architecture Index or the RAI is that it sets out to benchmark progress in the

[00:01:18] move towards regenerative practice and projects within architecture and built environment disciplines.

[00:01:25] So it recognises the need for a built environment that isn't merely reducing

[00:01:30] its negative impacts but has positive impacts for today and the long term. It's currently open

[00:01:35] for submissions until 17th May 2024 so do check out the link in the description to the page

[00:01:43] for the RAI and do consider submitting your practice or your projects towards it.

[00:01:49] Those who meet the criteria will be included in a compendium along with case studies, commentary

[00:01:56] analysis and the idea is to really elevate best practice that's happening in the transition to

[00:02:01] regenerative architecture at the moment. In the episode we get into you know a lot more

[00:02:07] of the details of what has inspired the RAI, what is behind it. We also have a really

[00:02:13] interesting chat around the criteria for what will be considered regenerative design

[00:02:19] which are about being a good ancestor, co-evolving with nature and creating a just space for people.

[00:02:26] So really really interesting stuff and really interesting concepts that we're getting into

[00:02:30] so yeah hope you enjoy.

[00:02:34] We're going to chat about the Regenerative Architecture Index so let's jump into that

[00:02:38] and just tell us what it is, where did it come from you know what's the story behind that.

[00:02:43] Great thanks Ross well this really came about because of a collaboration between architecture

[00:02:48] today and architects declare and it was a guy called Ken I think a few years back who made

[00:02:53] the introductions and kind of we discovered that we had a lot in common with architecture

[00:02:57] today and certainly they're passing the test of time award kind of meant something with

[00:03:01] architects declare and so the idea sort of came about there and then we've

[00:03:06] we've launched it recently and it's really about pushing towards more regenerative practice

[00:03:10] and so that's long been the history of architects declare is to pushing the direction of regenerative

[00:03:14] practice and so we recognize that it's an ambitious system and an ambitious set of

[00:03:22] questions but just like the architects declare declaration points you know that's really

[00:03:26] about showing ambition. Yeah I suppose quickly for people who might not be aware what is

[00:03:31] regenerative design. Oh well okay so regenerative design I think we would firstly say is a mindset

[00:03:38] and I think that's the first thing we need to think about it's a way of thinking in a non-linear

[00:03:44] way as we have done to date but in a more systematic way in a way to really understand how

[00:03:52] over time we can co-evolve with nature and start to repair the damage we've done

[00:03:57] to our natural ecosystems and it's I mean within the architects declare

[00:04:05] primer which was also the design primer we talked about as well. We've really categorized three

[00:04:12] main ways of considering regenerative design thinking so they would be being a good ancestor

[00:04:20] and really looking kind of seventh generation thinking how the decisions that we're making

[00:04:24] through design impacting not only ourselves today but into the future and co-evolving with nature

[00:04:29] as said so really thinking you know we can go into this into more detail but what is our position

[00:04:35] within human and living ecosystems and then creating a just place for people so really

[00:04:41] making sure that we bring everyone along board with us and that we're co-designing and that

[00:04:46] we're creating a just and equitable future. I think that's really good let's definitely get

[00:04:52] into those later on Jenna we're planning to do but I think that aspect of putting a bit more of

[00:05:00] I suppose a bit more structure and guidance around regenerative design which is a very new term

[00:05:04] and I think people struggle to grapple with as it feels quite conceptual but yeah looking forward

[00:05:10] to chatting more about that but I suppose yeah let's talk let's start with the regenerative

[00:05:14] architecture index in that sense so that's set us up really well yeah what is it and what's

[00:05:19] trying to achieve I suppose as a yeah go in your own words I suppose in my words well it's really

[00:05:27] like I say it's about encouraging change and it's also about recognizing that sustainability is a

[00:05:32] paradigm hasn't got us where it needs to hasn't got us where it needs to and the two terms actually

[00:05:38] kind of came about at the same time in the 70s and 80s there was a huge sort of

[00:05:41] enlightenment and awakening about the impact of humanity on the planet and so a lot of these

[00:05:46] terms and it was actually regenerative design and it kind of emerged through agriculture and

[00:05:50] regenerative agriculture has kind of existed for long yeah for much longer than regenerative

[00:05:54] design has as an idea but it's really about celebrating people who are in some ways regenerative

[00:06:00] in their practice and we know that many practices won't be doing this every day it won't have

[00:06:05] necessarily hundreds of case studies that really a body regenerative design but what we do want

[00:06:10] to do is pull out a handful of places where they are being regenerative and I think that's

[00:06:14] interesting thing about the way the index should hopefully work is that by asking so many quite

[00:06:19] deep questions about how people are practicing we should find some really good practice in some

[00:06:22] of those areas and we want to celebrate those people who are really succeeding whether it's

[00:06:26] about how they work with nature how they work with people or how they are good ancestors all

[00:06:31] of these things should hopefully give us the threads of what regenerative practice looks

[00:06:35] like and so we'll sort of bring those threads together to present a picture of regenerative

[00:06:39] practice from all of those different ideas I don't think it'll be one practice that is clearly

[00:06:44] doing it all because we know from our work through Architects Declare to this point that there aren't

[00:06:50] what there isn't one practice that's managed it all otherwise it will be sort of emulating them

[00:06:54] I think it kind of comes into the bigger goals of Architects Declare as well I mean I

[00:06:58] think we realize that today we're operating in a degenerative system and it's very hard to

[00:07:04] be regenerative within that system in order to make change we also recognize that you have to

[00:07:10] have a really clear vision and what we're hoping is that we've maybe miscalled it by naming it an

[00:07:18] index because I think that alludes to some sort of hierarchy or ranking and actually

[00:07:25] it's not about that at all it's about looking at today what is the best picture

[00:07:31] of regenerative design that we can find that is setting our vision for the future that's giving

[00:07:36] us something to aim towards and we're hoping that this will be an iterative thing year on year

[00:07:41] that will build a stronger picture and we kind of shift the boundaries of what's possible and

[00:07:47] inspire new practice that's amazing that's you've pre-empted one of my questions that I did want

[00:07:52] to ask which was that when I had to look at your questions and your criteria I thought wow this

[00:07:56] is really you know these are really ambitious I wonder will there be any practice that actually

[00:08:02] hits all of them and you're saying actually it's not the point that you're doing everything perfectly

[00:08:05] now it's that maybe you're you're doing really well on some things and then we can all learn together

[00:08:11] and sort of raise exactly and like Annalisa says that's really the emphasis of Architects

[00:08:15] Declare is to say here's an ambitious goal because if we can't be optimistic and look beyond

[00:08:20] the realism of today we aren't going to you know have a thriving future so it's finding

[00:08:25] those sort of free and shoots across the profession because we know that there's great

[00:08:29] practice going on and I think the other thing we want to say about the regenerative architecture

[00:08:33] index is it it intends not to benefit or be particularly easier for larger practices who've

[00:08:38] got more resources to put into these kind of entries it's really hopefully open to as many

[00:08:42] practices as possible because you know that actually there's this seed to regenerative

[00:08:47] practice a lot more in small practices who are more agile and more nimble and who would

[00:08:51] you know whether that's how they engage with communities how they work with and evolve materials

[00:08:55] or how they run their office and treat their staff there's lots of different threads of

[00:08:59] regenerative practice and actually it's often the smaller younger practices

[00:09:02] who are able to be a bit more nimble and test these things out so we hope that the larger

[00:09:06] practices can learn from them and also be seen alongside them but conversely the larger

[00:09:11] practices have more resourcing more built-up experience more knowledge banks more kind of

[00:09:16] you know muscle and heft in order to actually put time into whether that's materials

[00:09:20] research or particular work they're doing so we kind of want to to see smaller practices

[00:09:26] as the same in this index but really hopefully taking lessons and best practice from them both

[00:09:33] separately I caught up with Isabel Allen to learn about the role of architecture today

[00:09:38] in the regenerative architecture index so I think for architecture today um

[00:09:45] our role obviously at one level is to disseminate to make the information that comes out

[00:09:51] accessible to use our editorial skills to make it engage not only with the converted but with

[00:09:57] as wide an audience as we possibly can across architecture in the built environment

[00:10:02] um I think there's also a sense in which we we stand or we should stand for the mainstream

[00:10:08] I think you know like all magazines that serve a very well-defined professional community if we don't

[00:10:16] appeal to at least 99% of them we're kind of doomed so actually for us you know that that's the

[00:10:22] interesting thing is you want to use your platform to gently kind of nudge this up the

[00:10:29] ante if you like to nudge the sort of mainstream in a good direction but you don't want to

[00:10:34] leave people behind you don't want make you don't want to make people feel bad about themselves

[00:10:37] like you don't represent them so it's a kind of delicate balancing act and I think you know it's

[00:10:43] an exciting challenge for us I think it's also um in a way an opportunity to

[00:10:52] stop being just an observer and actually try and engender change and I think you know the media

[00:10:57] that serves as I say a tight-knit professional community always struggles with this you

[00:11:02] know and some editors will take the view that your job is is just to kind of distill

[00:11:06] and to reflect and hold up a mirror to the community you serve and others say actually

[00:11:11] we're going to jump in and we're going to try and do something positive and I think for us we very much

[00:11:18] nailed our colors to the jumping in mast but you know we have to do it without destroying

[00:11:23] our credibility and alienating our base so but you know to me that doesn't make it any weaker

[00:11:29] because actually I think you know we all know and architects declare have very clearly

[00:11:34] articulated the fact that no progress is really going to happen if there's any minority behind it so

[00:11:39] you know to me that's that's the challenge is finding those points where the vast majority of

[00:11:46] the architectural profession and the built environment are interested enough or intrigued

[00:11:51] enough or engaged enough to actually want to find out more and up their game. There's so many

[00:11:56] practices out there doing amazing work but we absolutely understand that it's work that

[00:12:01] is very difficult to communicate and you know architecture has a very well established media

[00:12:07] but it's got troops if you like and it's all around the kind of the one off shiny building or the

[00:12:11] stark tech whatever it is and it's not very good at capturing processes or ideas or thinking or

[00:12:19] structural change or the way you organize your practice or any of these things which we now

[00:12:24] understand are absolutely essential for progress. But you know somehow rather it seems to me

[00:12:30] that you know this business of sharing information is the most useful thing we can do right now

[00:12:39] because that's the biggest sort of heartbreak really is you speak to so many people and there's

[00:12:45] so much work but it's we're reinventing the wheel, we're not making iterative progress so I think

[00:12:53] you know that feels like it's such a positive use of the platform that we have.

[00:13:03] So is that the theory of change in a sense that by celebrating these practices that are doing well

[00:13:09] it sort of feeds into the wider industry? I mean I could say that you know we look firstly to

[00:13:14] think of like Dinella Meadows and you know thinking in systems and leverage points so

[00:13:20] fundamentally architects of Claire is looking at how do we change the goals of the system,

[00:13:25] the paradigm so that's really about the worldview and it's only when the worldview is

[00:13:30] correctly aligned does everything beneath that align towards a more regenerative future.

[00:13:37] And one of the higher points within Dinella Meadows 12 points is that you should change

[00:13:43] the goals of the system and that's actually where the first conversations came around is

[00:13:48] what do we consider the avant-garde today in architecture and how can we shift that

[00:13:54] and you know the award schemes, what are the things that we're striving towards as architects

[00:13:59] and celebrating and actually we really want to celebrate a way of practicing as opposed to an

[00:14:06] outcome as a built project. And you know this is again it's the index is looking both at projects

[00:14:12] and at organizations I think we iterate it's not just architecture practices it could be

[00:14:17] any organization that is contributing to the built environment but it's

[00:14:24] yeah the goal of the system really is the point there and that's what we're trying to change

[00:14:29] because we want people to aspire towards this and set the new vision. On top of Dinella Meadows

[00:14:37] thinking that we've referred to many times something that we've always kind of referred to

[00:14:43] is three horizons model so horizon one being the practice that we see most commonplace today

[00:14:54] horizon three is sort of the vision of what we want to achieve and horizon two are the

[00:15:01] transitional actions and practice that we're seeing to help us step from horizon one to horizon three.

[00:15:09] Horizon two is the kind of the bridging ideas or the transition ideas and these are the technologies

[00:15:13] we have today that are useful in the transition to a lower carbon and more regenerative society

[00:15:19] but they will effectively die out over time and horizon three are the things that we don't

[00:15:23] really have around today but show glimpses of a future which is more sustainable and more

[00:15:27] regenerative so using those kind of those three horizons as a really useful explainer on YouTube

[00:15:32] about the three horizons framework once you get into that mindset it's quite useful to understand

[00:15:37] okay what is this what is this project doing what is this initiative doing what are these ideas

[00:15:41] doing are they horizon one are they kind of old school things we kind of want to get rid of

[00:15:45] eventually are they horizon two possibly like electric cars or other things or are they

[00:15:49] horizon three like entirely new ways of relating to each other and so that's an

[00:15:53] interesting framework that we've tried to represent in the logo and hopefully people

[00:15:58] pick up on that as they as they see it yeah I think I think that's the three horizons is great

[00:16:02] because I think it makes clear I think something that is a really challenging conversation within

[00:16:08] I suppose sustainability at the moment which is that lots of people have a conceptualization

[00:16:14] of a sustainable future as being broadly very similar to how we are now but just with renewable

[00:16:18] energy and electric cars and solar panels and that kind of thing and it's it's having that

[00:16:23] more challenging conversation saying actually you know a lot of things probably should be much

[00:16:29] different and even in ways we can't imagine yet and so I love the idea of building the bridge

[00:16:34] you know to that to that world that we don't know necessarily what it is yes

[00:16:40] and that's the technology point I mean we can have this sort of wizard or prophet way of

[00:16:45] looking at it and if we still have all the wizardry of technology but under the goals

[00:16:50] of the system that's still in a paradigm of endless growth and profit then it's not going to be

[00:16:55] serving in everyone's best interest so we have to kind of set the vision being this horizon three

[00:17:02] the new mindset is sort of what we're aiming towards and then there's a transition to kind of

[00:17:06] steward the technology and all the innovation that's happening towards that horizon

[00:17:12] and not become degenerative as it is now yeah yeah and there's a lot of there's a lot of

[00:17:16] work being done around um positive like social tipping points where you know once you get a

[00:17:22] critical mass of people who have adopted we'll say in this case regenerative practices the sort

[00:17:27] of lagging majority will then all of a sudden come along hopefully so you're absolutely trying

[00:17:32] to push against that tipping point and hopefully just becomes normal in time yeah and I think it's

[00:17:38] not you know we can do as much we can to push and drive change but we also need to work to

[00:17:44] bring down the barriers towards change um so yeah it's a dual approach that we're taking throughout

[00:17:50] yeah yeah I'm thinking about how you're sort of clicking into other other people and other

[00:17:55] people have had on the podcast who are who are again taking quite a systemic approach

[00:17:59] I'm thinking about people who are working in universities and trying to change the

[00:18:02] narrative in universities about what the goal of an architectural education should be

[00:18:06] and the way that architecture fits in with wider urban systems and all that kind of thing

[00:18:09] other people are working on those so I think it's been a really fascinating thread for me

[00:18:13] over the years doing the podcast of well first of all how often Don Ella Meddals has mentioned

[00:18:19] as like such an influential thinker on on on the sustainable transition or whatever

[00:18:25] so yeah I mean really fascinating and on that we've got um we do have a theory of change within

[00:18:30] architecture declare which took it's probably on it's like 17th iteration at this point

[00:18:35] it doesn't come up enough but it's good to have a chance to to discuss it and I guess

[00:18:39] Annalisa is correct that this is really about changing the goals of the system within the industry

[00:18:43] yeah that's about we'd say about 30 or 40 percent of our work at the moment so we do work within

[00:18:49] the profession which is about changing those goals within the profession but we also have

[00:18:53] a more significant piece of work which is about shifting external organizations and actually going

[00:18:59] out and advocating on behalf of the public environment for the change we need to see in

[00:19:02] legislation policy because there's a limited amount we can do within the industry

[00:19:06] but actually we know that if we can change the change organizations outside that that's going to

[00:19:11] be more of our focus so if you're interested in kind of policy change we're doing work

[00:19:15] called building blocks at the moment which is about the three policy levers

[00:19:18] for the next British government to make sure that we are really able as built environment

[00:19:23] professionals to to do good on our on our word and to do good on the declaration

[00:19:28] with the support from policy and funding that we need to do so so that it's not

[00:19:32] entirely up to us to make this change absolutely I mean it's it's architecture is a really important

[00:19:38] part of the jigsaw puzzle but it's only one piece and I think really we have to be looking at things

[00:19:45] like the planning system and and you know the way our economy is is is so enmeshed with housing

[00:19:51] delivery and all of these various things which are really complex like wicked problems but they're

[00:19:57] so essential to getting getting to where we know we need to be and often contradictory right we

[00:20:02] think they're a regulatory system that contradicts often planning system goals and that's why we

[00:20:07] speak about the kind of the systems goal you know that all has to align for all of these

[00:20:13] building blocks by fitting underneath to to be aligned towards that high goal yeah exactly yeah

[00:20:20] I'm sure you have a sense of where where regenerative design is at in the industry

[00:20:26] at the moment and what are your thoughts on that I mean it's it's it's been incredible to me

[00:20:30] following it just the last two or three years really it has just started popping up everywhere

[00:20:35] this term and I think there's concerns that it might become another buzzword or might be misused

[00:20:43] or that it might be misinterpreted in different ways so I suppose yeah I'd be interested to

[00:20:46] know as you guys are in it working in it day today what how is it in the industry at the

[00:20:51] moment I do think that's something that we speak about a lot and are really conscious of

[00:20:56] is that we have to hold on to the essence of what it really means and that's why I started by saying

[00:21:02] it's a mindset but at the same time it is something that is measurable like we know we can measure

[00:21:08] that we are net positive on energy for example and we can measure what the biodiversity impact

[00:21:15] or the embedded biodiversity of material as much as we can with this kind of quite current

[00:21:19] carbon tunnel vision that we have so I think it's about making sure that we have a very holistic

[00:21:26] understanding that goes beyond sustainability it's not about doing less bad as sustainability is but

[00:21:31] it's about this kind of positive net good it is measurable although those measures need to

[00:21:35] be evolving to understand that regenerative design will evolve over time and yeah we

[00:21:43] we are kind of concerned as I guess anybody is that will just kind of have this new greenwashing

[00:21:50] with regenerative washing but I think safeguarding the term and partly what the work that we're

[00:21:58] trying to do with the index is to create a common language as with the design primer that has

[00:22:03] also been recently launched by having a common language and a common understanding of these

[00:22:08] terms it allows us to speak the same language and to set the same targets and to be working

[00:22:13] to the same goals and hopefully have a very industry defined standard as we started to see

[00:22:18] around things like net zero or net zero carbon or carbon positive you know yeah these these industry

[00:22:25] standard terms are becoming acknowledged now yeah exactly yeah yeah there's a real risk that it is

[00:22:30] co-opted and becomes somewhat meaningless and we're fully aware of that as Annalisa suggests I think

[00:22:36] we do need a need a better paradigm and a new word though and I think we recognize that and that's

[00:22:41] why we're sort of and also I suppose to my point earlier this has this is not a new concept it's new

[00:22:46] to the to the built environment in terms of the lexicon that people are using but it has been proven

[00:22:51] since this sort of late 80s that this is one of the things we need to achieve as a society

[00:22:55] more broadly and it's inspired by nature which has obviously been doing its thing for an awful

[00:22:59] long time um and I suppose the one one of the ways or one of the ways that we're trying

[00:23:04] to protect this and make this a meaningful um a meaningful initiative is to invite some really

[00:23:10] important ambassadors so we've got three ambassadors who will be joining us for the judging of the

[00:23:15] index and they I'm not sure if I can announce who they are at the moment uh Isabel's in charge

[00:23:20] of that and when that will happen um but there's one ambassador for each of the three categories

[00:23:25] that we have so one for the um being a good ancestor one for co-evolving with nature

[00:23:29] and one for creating a just space for people and I think those I certainly really trust those

[00:23:34] people myself to to help stew with this and make sure that it is actually a meaningful um

[00:23:39] recognition of people's work amazing is this I think it's probably a good time to go on and

[00:23:45] talk about some of those those criteria and those questions because I think um there's loads to get

[00:23:49] into there and that will sort of help us unpack what this means um I have I suppose bits of it

[00:23:55] that I'm interested in but I'd be interested to know from from each of you what are the

[00:23:58] criteria or the questions that you think really speak to you that you feel are really

[00:24:03] important yeah sure I think um I mean for me personally I think co-evolving with nature is

[00:24:09] a really interesting one a bit harder to grapple with um I'd first speak to um being a good ancestor

[00:24:15] and I think that's quite something that is easier to relate to and easy to get stakeholders on

[00:24:22] board with in the idea of because um there's all sorts of tools there's um the the long time

[00:24:29] project um that have a whole set of tools that were referenced in the first iteration of the

[00:24:34] Arctics of Chlorpractice Guide which is great because they give these ways of thinking both

[00:24:38] back several generations and forward several generations in timescales of people that you

[00:24:43] can relate to whether it be grandparents or children's or children's children and then

[00:24:47] you can start to understand what is your legacy and what legacy do you want to leave

[00:24:52] and that changes the way that you start to approach a project so I think that's quite

[00:24:57] a tangible one that we can think about um co well I'll let you speak first out of the

[00:25:03] stone before we go into co-evolving nature yeah I'm really excited about all the criteria really

[00:25:07] I think it's um because of the breadth of subjects that we've managed to fit into this

[00:25:12] I think it gives most practices a chance to shine um particularly for me being a good ancestor and

[00:25:17] having having kind of clearly stated purpose and ambition within the practice is important

[00:25:21] and we see a lot of that nowadays and I think it's um understanding those ideas whether it's

[00:25:26] having a theory of change or whether it's having a clear succession plan or being an employee on

[00:25:29] trust I think those kind of things are important especially as we're potentially going into a

[00:25:33] recession at the moment this is not just good sense in terms of um Arctics of Chlorin this

[00:25:39] kind of work it's also a good business sense um so I think these things will help help practices

[00:25:43] show show what they've been doing and how they've been thinking about the future a little bit

[00:25:46] more um I think creating a just space for people is also super important because social

[00:25:50] sustainability is very almost inherent to to a lot of designers work a lot of the

[00:25:54] bit of professionals are much better to be honest at thinking about people because you can

[00:25:58] really sort of empathize with people we all can um whereas I think so that I think that you know

[00:26:03] as Annalisa says we've had carpentunnel vision for a little while and I think talking about just

[00:26:07] space for people and regenerative design is important nowadays so I'm looking also forward

[00:26:12] to seeing hopefully some of the younger collectives and practices applying and telling us about

[00:26:15] their work engaging community work yeah because there's so much great work going on um I hope

[00:26:20] we get a chance to shine the light on it amazing yeah I suppose but before we move on to the the

[00:26:25] co-evolving nature piece um I'd be interested to know what are like what are some of the aspects

[00:26:30] of projects that you think could be exemplary in these um in terms of being good ancestor or

[00:26:36] the making space for for for people I think with the good ancestor stuff it's about resilience

[00:26:41] at this point because the climate is changing and there's that's this recognition of that

[00:26:45] so I think web projects can show that they are actually whether it's designed for disassembly

[00:26:49] or whether it's something that's actually got a shorter design life or a longer design life than

[00:26:53] it was originally intended I think challenging those ideas about design life are certainly an

[00:26:57] important thing that we'd love to see and sort of this idea that solutions can be slightly

[00:27:01] less deterministic because we know enough to know that we have to have flexibility yeah um in

[00:27:06] our future designs I would add to that about kind of resource use um for example you know

[00:27:11] we have to look both at geographically distance boundaries from our site but also

[00:27:19] time distance boundaries from our site and think that what are we borrowing from the future in

[00:27:23] building today and you know with the um project I'm working on in Wales is really sitting under

[00:27:29] the future generations act yeah um and you know there's some really empowering decisions that

[00:27:35] have been made in Wales in infrastructure based on the idea that is this actually

[00:27:41] in the best interest of the future generations over the interest of our needs today yeah

[00:27:48] and in terms of making creating a space just space for people I'm reading that upside down from your

[00:27:52] page well done um I think that's really like I say that's really just about deep engagement

[00:27:58] with local stakeholders on projects and so and I think it's really what we do ask and you'll

[00:28:03] notice this in some of the questions if you're applying that we ask that kind of you know do a

[00:28:07] majority of your projects represent this so it's great that practices have some standalone projects

[00:28:11] but it's kind of is this standard in your practice yeah to go out and do that engagement to ask

[00:28:15] those neighbours or those stakeholders about their views and ambitions for the building because

[00:28:20] we know that buildings where there's been a deeper engagement with the local society are

[00:28:24] generally more resilient because people care about them and they were involved in their

[00:28:28] you know in their co-creation so that's one of the things we'd be looking for

[00:28:32] um and I think then we also do talk about kind of social value and that's the metric that's

[00:28:37] kind of come about in in since about 2012 I think was the um social value act and this idea

[00:28:43] that actually we can measure the social impact of architecture and I think that is a useful

[00:28:48] a useful term and a useful thing alongside regenerative architecture to think about

[00:28:51] what is the social value you're generating because going that extra mile whether it's doing

[00:28:54] the engagement or doing the post occupancy work or doing something that's kind of either side of

[00:28:59] the architectural process that's not necessarily paid so well I think that shows benefits and

[00:29:03] thankfully things like social value actually can monetize that benefit that's really another

[00:29:08] discussion whether you should monetize social value but nonetheless it's in there as a metric

[00:29:12] in this um in this category about just space for people it's such a tricky thing because I

[00:29:17] think like as designers you know we work within you know systems and an economy that we

[00:29:22] we don't necessarily have much influence over and I think one of the the things that

[00:29:27] I find so tricky to grapple with is the fact that you can do an amazing project that's very

[00:29:32] sustainable and you can involve local people but once it sort of hits the the the market

[00:29:38] you have those ripple effects of gentrification perhaps or or pricing people out or you're

[00:29:42] sort of have to work within a developer model that you don't think is actually particularly

[00:29:46] good for local people and that kind of thing so I do feel for for practices who

[00:29:51] will obviously take the work they can get and not always feel like they can influence that side of

[00:29:56] things yeah I think in general though you know we would also advocate that um we need to expand our

[00:30:02] agency and where are the places where we can get involved as early up the chain and a project as

[00:30:08] possible to make sure those kind of um management stewardship long-term involvement and community

[00:30:16] control over over a place um is going to have legacy as well yeah and um you know there's an

[00:30:25] element about self-organization there as well you know people who know a place best are going to make

[00:30:30] place most resilient because they know what's needed there and how do you build up that resilience

[00:30:34] through the the means by which the project comes out and it's not just kind of coming in as a

[00:30:40] designer and then you know doing your own community engagement and being away with it but I

[00:30:45] think really building up a long and iterative way of designing um that you're constantly feeding back

[00:30:52] and having a longer term involvement with place yeah absolutely and I think there just there

[00:30:56] really needs to be a mindset shift in terms of how much meaningful community engagement

[00:31:01] and co-creation is always money well spent in terms of the outcome of the project because

[00:31:05] I've I've really seen that working in consultancy for local authorities where their budgets

[00:31:11] got so stretched that the community engagement side of thing just became so minimal for many

[00:31:15] projects and they said oh can you just do it you know as cheaply as possible really

[00:31:19] and you just you just can't get the data that you need in terms of you know what makes the

[00:31:24] place tick to do the projects with that sort of mindset yeah there's a real risk to tokenism

[00:31:27] in that in consultation but thankfully there are now you know there's there's certainly been

[00:31:33] quite a few celebrated examples of deep engagement on projects over the last

[00:31:37] sort of decade and they've been awarded various you know the largest architecture prizes so it's

[00:31:41] good to good to see that recognition I think there is a sort of a title shift towards that

[00:31:46] towards that recognition um there's also some stories of those of those same projects which

[00:31:51] are now you know coming under pressures from capital there are reasons why some of those

[00:31:54] projects aren't as successful as they were when they completed um but that is the context

[00:31:58] that we're in and like I say we have to be kind of ambitious despite the

[00:32:02] the you know the current um current systems yeah well let's let's have a chat about the

[00:32:09] core volume in HBs because I'm very interested in this so yeah tell us a little bit about this one

[00:32:14] um I mean it's your earlier question about kind of what resonates with you I said this

[00:32:17] really resonates with me I think partly because um as part of my role in architecture

[00:32:22] at Claire and as one representative along with a colleague on the steering group

[00:32:27] now I've been taking part in a regenerative policy course um that's led by Oliver Broadbent

[00:32:33] who also wrote the regenerative structural engineer plug on others behalf um and what we

[00:32:41] speak about there is co-evolving with nature coming under three categories and for me this

[00:32:47] has really helped kind of grapple what that is and it's understanding interconnectedness

[00:32:51] firstly you know we need to have interconnectedness within a system so we as humans need to

[00:32:56] understand how we are interconnected with natural systems and through that create feedback loops

[00:33:01] so you can understand where the stresses are from what one activity is doing on another part

[00:33:06] of the system and how you can change that to make sure that you are co-benefit fitting

[00:33:11] um you know you see that with kind of trees in the forest through mycelium networks and

[00:33:16] if one tree is scarce of water they can actually communicate that and share the water

[00:33:21] within between them um secondly is symbiosis so really designing out waste and um I mean that

[00:33:30] is an example but you know within natural ecosystem there is no waste the output from one becomes

[00:33:37] a resource to another um so really seeing how do we work in symbiosis reciprocity you know

[00:33:44] how do we work with nature so that both can thrive yeah robin wall camera gives great examples

[00:33:50] of that in breeding sweet grass I'm sure many people love that yeah um and then coming back

[00:33:56] to this point about self-organization and um evolving systems are best fit to the context

[00:34:03] and you know there's this kind of messiness in nature and there's a self-organizing element

[00:34:08] there's there's no one steer about how anything should operate but things evolve

[00:34:14] that that suit the context and that's why we need to trust local communities that comes back

[00:34:19] to its previous conversation about what is best for that local context with the local knowledge

[00:34:25] that's so interesting I mean it's these are quite like

[00:34:29] lofty concepts I think the probing designers are not used to grappling with I imagine

[00:34:34] I guess Alison maybe is best to speak a bit more how that relates to the regenerative

[00:34:39] architecture index and the sort of things we might expect out of practices and projects

[00:34:43] yeah sure I mean I think it's very that was very eloquent and I didn't know about those

[00:34:47] you know that what you've been doing so it's fascinating I've got a simpler approach to it which

[00:34:51] is from the um 2021 desk up to review which is we are part of nature not separate from it

[00:34:57] and that you know fundamental description we try and write the work that we've done in the

[00:35:03] RAI and other places you know with part of nature not separate from it and it's worth that

[00:35:07] reminder and that doesn't have to be so lofty it can just be the case of like you know in

[00:35:12] our practice recently we start having meetings outside we find that when we're walking forwards

[00:35:17] together in nature we tend to make better decisions when we're sitting opposite each other in a meeting

[00:35:22] room why that is who knows there's evidence that you know the brain is less stressed out in nature

[00:35:27] there's lots of research to back those kind of things up but that's a simple decision that

[00:35:30] doesn't take a lot of resources it doesn't take a lot of effort you have to have an umbrella

[00:35:34] and avoid busy times a day certainly but you know it can be very practical so those kind of

[00:35:39] things as well as just having plants in the office using biofilia in your design these kind of ideas

[00:35:43] aren't too complex but I think they're worth recognizing and grasping upon as a good idea

[00:35:48] so those are the kind of the practice criteria and then within the project criteria

[00:35:53] we've got the useful kind of buzz at the moment around biodiversity net gain

[00:36:00] so by including this as a requirement what we're finding is that there's just far more

[00:36:04] discussion about it it's a hard metric to prove and it's a difficult sort of learning curve for a

[00:36:09] lot of people but I 100% support it because it just means that people have to take a little bit

[00:36:15] more consideration about what they do with our empty site yeah I mean that the biodiversity net gain

[00:36:21] in the UK is might be one of the first examples of a you what you might call a regenerative

[00:36:26] policy coming international legislation and I think it's fantastic in concept and I think if we

[00:36:32] can if what from what I've heard talking to landscape architects and practitioners it is very

[00:36:36] tricky to make it work in practice the way we maybe wanted to work but I think you know hopefully

[00:36:42] with refinement we can get there to it being a really a really good good thing um yeah um

[00:36:52] I have a couple of questions rolling around in my head I'm wondering where to go with this

[00:36:55] I suppose something that I find interesting is that I suppose within a sort of a room like

[00:37:02] this where you have you know we're sort of you know educated professionals and we you know

[00:37:06] live and breathe this stuff and we love you know thinking about these things and we want to move

[00:37:11] things forward I think often when you bring it out into the public sphere or you talk to people

[00:37:16] who from totally different backgrounds um you know their their heads are in totally different

[00:37:20] places they're thinking about things like how am I going to pay my rent you know

[00:37:24] where are my kids going to live there's no affordable housing around um you know just day

[00:37:28] to day you know the the crises that we're living in I suppose day to day and do you think there's a

[00:37:33] role for the architect or the built environment professional as also kind of an educator when

[00:37:39] we're interacting with with people when we're doing that sort of engagement to sort of show

[00:37:43] that other possibilities are out there absolutely and I think the I think my first point would be

[00:37:49] that we don't want to use we do use simpler language when you're you know in in broader

[00:37:54] discussion than this and I think the importance but you know the differentials between sustainability

[00:37:59] and re-enactment design and other other terms is something we'll discuss within the profession

[00:38:04] I don't think we should necessarily force that down people's strengths in consultation but what we

[00:38:08] should really be doing is passing them agency okay because it's their built environment it's not

[00:38:12] our built environment and it's very much about passing agency to take care of places and to

[00:38:18] care for to landscapes and these are all things that people fundamentally agree with

[00:38:23] once you get on the right terms and on the right language in it's the difficult thing at the moment

[00:38:27] obviously is as people are under such pressure with the cost of living crisis and many other

[00:38:31] crises that are intersecting at the moment it's how you find time for those discussions and

[00:38:35] those meaningful discussions and that's not an easy thing I certainly don't have an answer to that

[00:38:40] I think it's also about communicating co-benefits of a lot of the things that we're talking

[00:38:44] about and we talk about healthy homes and well insulated homes to reduce our energy

[00:38:50] consumption but it also reduces fuel costs and you know that can help towards energy security for

[00:38:56] people or if we talk about the types of materials that we're using are we going to be using petrochemical

[00:39:01] based materials or are we using natural biobased materials that also promote health and well being

[00:39:07] in x y instead way reducing pollution in our streets all of these kind of co-benefits that

[00:39:12] people can relate to how it's going to personally impact them and then explaining and not just

[00:39:18] explaining but kind of discussing with people and how they would like to shape the future of their

[00:39:23] place and what these co-benefits they would like to see and then how does that translate back to

[00:39:28] what we're designing and how we deliver that yeah there is a kind of a magic a certain magic that

[00:39:35] can happen when you get in a room with people and it's sort of a well structured and it's

[00:39:40] a good discussion I think with local people because I remember I did a some engagement work

[00:39:46] a couple years ago where it was a community you know community typical thing you know

[00:39:50] council office community thing we brought people around the tables and we were doing a sort of

[00:39:53] interactive consultation around stuff that was happening in the town centre and there was a guy

[00:39:59] who came with the explicit sort of message that he didn't want any private vehicles being

[00:40:05] limited from the town centre because I think he got wind that they were going to you know

[00:40:09] be promoting cycling and and maybe pedestrianising some streets and that kind of thing

[00:40:13] and he was saying like you have to think about people who you know are older people who need

[00:40:17] vehicles to get in and out and all the kind of thing he's making some good points

[00:40:21] and there was another guy there who was an avid cyclist and he was talking about how awful the

[00:40:25] town was for cycling and that he always feels like he's in danger and he needs you know

[00:40:30] he needs proper cycle lanes and all this kind of stuff and and the two of them were sort

[00:40:33] of ended up having this sort of conversation within the group and by the end of it the guy

[00:40:36] who was quite what we'll say pro vehicle pro car at the beginning he said he said you know

[00:40:41] what when I was a kid around here we all used to cycle our bikes everywhere and he said I

[00:40:46] realised that actually kids these days can't do that because it's too dangerous and he sort of

[00:40:49] he sort of had this mental switch not from us like trying to educate him but just from chatting to

[00:40:54] one of his like another local person who had a different perspective and that for me was evidence

[00:40:59] of like when you when you can facilitate the space for people that is sort of judgment-free

[00:41:04] these little magic switches can happen which is really nice exactly that's a lovely example

[00:41:09] sorry I'm sorry you know there is polarization in the media and in the debate at the moment about

[00:41:15] broadly about net zero sustainability the low-carbon mission and so it's important to

[00:41:21] bring people together because you there is evidence that citizens assemblies do overwhelmingly

[00:41:25] vote in favour of sustainable policies when brought together and given the time to consider

[00:41:30] carefully the options open to us at this stage so I think there is there's going to be more

[00:41:35] room for that like I say in my previous responses you know if we can't create those spaces for people

[00:41:39] to discuss and debate these ideas together it can become very problematic if the debate

[00:41:43] happens mostly online there's driven by media with interests that may not be clear

[00:41:48] yeah well I think this was partly why we wanted to partner and you know what was spoken about

[00:41:53] within architecture Claire is the responsibility of the media and both addressing that and making

[00:42:00] sure that they are promoting the the urgency of the climate crisis that we're in in a kind of

[00:42:06] frequent and transparent way um but something made me think oh yeah I was speaking on a panel at

[00:42:16] future build and there was a really difficult question that came out of the audience

[00:42:22] and it made everyone in the panel really sit and think and what was my real takeaway from that

[00:42:30] which I'm so grateful for was the importance of putting ourselves into the the points of view

[00:42:38] and into very challenging perspectives of other people and making sure that we're not just

[00:42:44] sitting and having this conversation silos because you will always change your frame

[00:42:48] of mind when you have a conversation with somebody else and it's important that we're

[00:42:53] constantly navigating that and you know if we continue to think that we want to

[00:42:58] drive a certain message it's how do you then communicate that message in a way that can bring

[00:43:02] more people on board but I think stepping out of our silos and as much as possible putting

[00:43:07] ourselves into those contradictory challenging conversations is really beneficial even if they're

[00:43:12] quite difficult in the moment. Yeah it can be painful for your ego but it's I think if you can

[00:43:20] have the right mindset around it and be open to it like it is great to talk to people you disagree

[00:43:25] with because you know have to get out of your echo chambers. Yeah and I think we have to practice

[00:43:30] more empathy as a professional unless it's been coming up with some of the changes happening

[00:43:35] with the Architects Registration Board and some of the work they're doing that you know they've

[00:43:39] found through some research that a lot of the public expect built environment professionals to

[00:43:44] show empathy in all situations and so I'm picking that word and why that came up so regularly in the

[00:43:48] research is something that's kind of happening at the moment but I think it's really important to

[00:43:51] remember. That's interesting. Let's talk about the Regeneration of Architecture Primer

[00:43:59] what is that? What's it about? Okay so annoyingly it's called the Regenative Design Primer

[00:44:05] and it doesn't make it totally overlap we should have not called the Regenative Architecture Index

[00:44:10] the Architecture Index because it's not just for architects and the Regenerative Design Primer

[00:44:14] is aimed at architects, another designer is also incorrectly named but I think this is basically

[00:44:21] a way of us making the principles of Regenerative Design more accessible firstly so it's kind

[00:44:28] of setting out what do we mean you know what was spoken about in the beginning by a Regenerative

[00:44:32] Design it's nothing new and this is how we as architects declare are describing it under these

[00:44:38] three categories. I think I also mentioned that it's about making a common language and making sure

[00:44:45] that we are working towards the same outputs and defining a vision I think what it does quite

[00:44:50] well and we hope that the Regenerative Architecture Index will feed into this in future

[00:44:56] iterations not generations is that today we see traits of Regenerative Design even if

[00:45:04] not a whole project is regenerative so it gives examples of some of these traits

[00:45:10] and where we collect data from the index we can include those into next iterations

[00:45:19] and then finally it provides practical steps and tools for those who want to

[00:45:26] follow the guidance to reach some of the declaration points and the points of the

[00:45:31] Regenerative Design so it's structured around the ROBA plan of work. It first sets out

[00:45:39] much like the Architects of Claire practice guide that came out in 2021 firstly we need to put a house

[00:45:49] in order as an organization so first you need to start to adopt the mindset that was we've

[00:45:54] been speaking about within the organization because that's going to drive how we practice

[00:46:00] and then it goes through the ROBA work stages with guidance and tools of how you may think

[00:46:09] differently or approach these works age differently and then yeah gives a set of guidance going through

[00:46:16] interesting I think is that available now that is available now it's it is a constant draft

[00:46:23] it's always going to be a work in progress so there are there are parts in it that say

[00:46:28] do you know what we actually don't have an image for this right now hopefully by next year we will

[00:46:32] if you've got some ideas email us at this point but I think it's in the understanding that you know

[00:46:37] we we don't hold all the answers and we're really hoping that this whole process will bring the

[00:46:42] industry together to work open source collectively share data and allow us to kind of build as

[00:46:47] much information into this as possible. That's great yeah well I'll have a link to that in

[00:46:51] the episode description so people can go to that and I'm looking forward to reading that as well

[00:46:54] because I think something that is so needed is those examples and those case studies because

[00:47:00] I think that makes it really concrete for people of sort of or decidedly not concrete but you know

[00:47:05] makes it real tangible tangible exactly um of like what what what this looks like in practice

[00:47:13] basically um so that's brilliant yeah. Yeah there's been an eight you know there's long been a

[00:47:18] challenging within architects to clarify about how to which projects is showcase and how to

[00:47:23] how to decide what what gets attention given that we know a lot of things are flawed in some ways

[00:47:28] despite being great in others. We've had back and forth within the steering group and I'm a

[00:47:32] keen advocate of certain projects I talk about the um and it's concrete it's the uh seed belt

[00:47:38] in Svalbard in Norway which for me represents in some way regenerative design because it is

[00:47:43] storing things for infinitely future generations and it's protecting nature in a way that very

[00:47:48] few buildings do um but arguably it's got a huge carbon footprint so how does that square

[00:47:53] also the Eden project I think did an incredible job of regenerating a Cornish clay mine so there are

[00:47:58] you know lots of positives in that project and then sort of more recent projects looking at

[00:48:03] Nest House by Studio Park was a very engaging project with a number of students who learnt

[00:48:08] and built that project for a couple who were you know really in need and I think it's an

[00:48:12] amazing project. I suppose an important point for me as a non-architect is that

[00:48:17] I suppose it doesn't have to end with the building and I think you know you talked about

[00:48:22] you know a couple examples there that aren't your typical sort of building projects and I think

[00:48:26] also embracing the landscape architecture aspects of these the urbanism the neighborhood

[00:48:30] design master planning is is so important and actually I don't think I think the lines

[00:48:34] between these are often quite blurry anyway so I'm presuming even though we've been talking

[00:48:38] about architecture actually this is all relevant to other yeah absolutely and we'd welcome

[00:48:43] projects from a number of different bit of environment professionals and you know it's really

[00:48:47] about looking at that holistic picture and saying what were the what was the ecosystem

[00:48:51] that allowed this project to happen yeah there'll be you know hundreds of people involved in many

[00:48:55] projects so we really want to see what those stories are and showcase them because it doesn't

[00:48:59] it's not simple to design in a regenerative way and it does require buying from a lot of

[00:49:03] different team members so we'd also like to hear stories of when you know other consultants

[00:49:07] have got involved and advocated on behalf of the team I mean when we was first talking about the

[00:49:14] index we were thinking I mean could we award this to non-human organizations like I know you've had

[00:49:20] a previous episode on beavers coming into um kind of in uh West London and yeah just to stress

[00:49:30] the point it's really not about architects or even built environment professionals it could be

[00:49:34] community groups um it could be anyone who basically hears about it and thinks that they

[00:49:40] have something to contribute um you don't need to have an answer to all of the questions under

[00:49:45] every category there are many firms who have been working forever yeah their entire existence

[00:49:55] in incredibly positive ways and there are some who perhaps large firms who basically put all of

[00:50:02] their energy into selling the one regenerative project that they've been doing but actually

[00:50:09] they're disguising a load of other bread and butter stuff that they're doing behind the scenes

[00:50:14] so this is why we are going to sort of separate it out under the categories and it will almost

[00:50:20] be the frequency by which you're able to respond to things across the board is an indication of

[00:50:28] practices um breadth and depth of regenerative thinking um but this but this won't be presented

[00:50:36] in a linear index ranked way um but you know there will be some um we're gonna kind of form a

[00:50:44] compendium of as we said this like kind of best in class uh projects that we see today and practice

[00:50:51] that we see today um those will be named and celebrated but there will be a whole list of

[00:50:59] organizations who have entered into the index uh who will be grouped um under the categories

[00:51:05] it's then a place to go where people who are looking for collaborators or for architects to

[00:51:11] to work with you know it's it's a kind of a destination to go to where you then have it

[00:51:16] sort of in one place yeah i definitely hope so yeah it should be a resource that we can

[00:51:19] continue to build on and it should be a place where you can find value aligned

[00:51:22] yeah designers or you know other people amazing so it's it's uh submissions are open now until

[00:51:29] sort of mid-may and that right and then what happens after that after the 17th of May we will be um

[00:51:35] taking some time to review all of the work together with the ambassadors yeah and identify the

[00:51:40] you know really the best in class for the three different categories as well as the

[00:51:43] best in class for each of the different questions yeah oh and that's the point actually

[00:51:47] we are going to be um assessing that question by question which is why you know it's it's not about

[00:51:53] if you only answer five out of the 19 questions um if you only answer five out of the 19 questions

[00:52:03] you're not penalized anyway it's just that for each question we're trying to gather

[00:52:06] the best answers to that question and then and then that will kind of get put forwards

[00:52:11] into the index um after the ambassadors and the kind of announcement of uh what the index and

[00:52:19] this compendium looks like um we will be having a celebration event uh in September um more information

[00:52:28] from that to come but we're hoping it's going to be a really good party and sort of an anti-awards

[00:52:33] dinner which yeah working on there will be a theme we're still figuring that one out

[00:52:39] and then um finally there will be a uh a way weekend um have we announced that the

[00:52:48] Schumacher College probably yes so that'll be at Schumacher College down in Devon where a lot

[00:52:52] of this thinking happened um in the early days and a lot of the education there is really aligned

[00:52:57] with the work we're doing um so that'll be in a way weekend for people who've entered the

[00:53:02] the index and it should be a real celebration of their work and space to learn more and exchange

[00:53:07] ideas with others and I think we're going to see it as a real workshopping um for feeding information

[00:53:12] and data into the next iteration of the regenerative design primer which is where the whole loop

[00:53:17] then yes yeah it's incomplete well and you're building a community around it as well which

[00:53:21] is really exciting there's probably going to be people who've never met each other but doing

[00:53:24] really you know yeah hopefully we can hopefully we can sort of yeah feed into some of the

[00:53:29] knowledge communities that exist around this work and strengthen them and build them yeah yeah

[00:53:33] does it so will it just so I'm interested how it like evolves into the future do you are you

[00:53:38] reopening it for submission every year or how does that work absolutely the intention is it

[00:53:42] runs annually and like Annalisa says it builds on the successes of the previous years we'll

[00:53:47] definitely be tweaking the questions definitely tweaking the way it's judged a lot of different

[00:53:50] things that we'll learn from from the first year I think we will you know we'll see

[00:53:54] evolution but hopefully it retains its spirit and grows year on year amazing guys I've really

[00:54:00] enjoyed this conversation um I think we'll call it there unless there's any any final points great

[00:54:05] no thanks very much Ross really enjoyed the chat yeah well thank you so much for having us

[00:54:08] and giving us the opportunity to speak a bit more about the regenerative architecture index

[00:54:13] I know that we've had quite a few questions coming in from people who are hesitant

[00:54:17] about applying so just to really iterate again we really encourage that everybody applies

[00:54:23] it's for everyone not just architects the more data we have the more successful it's going to be

[00:54:28] and we're really looking forward to seeing the outcomes and then hopefully we can have someone

[00:54:33] from the team on one of your later podcasts to kind of feedback some of our learnings from it

[00:54:39] yeah definitely good to have a part two and we'll see where it's where it's gone

[00:54:42] great thanks a lot Ross thank you so much