#84: Net Zero Carbon Neighbourhoods, with Sam Luker (AESG)

[00:00:00] In reality we need to look at net zero from a neighbourhood perspective and look at ways that we can share energy

[00:00:06] Welcome to the Green Urbanist, Hard Gas Rubinist, Fighting Climate Change

[00:00:18] I'm Ross

[00:00:29] Hello everyone, you're very welcome back to another episode

[00:00:32] Today I'm chatting to Sam Luker

[00:00:34] Sam and Sam Luker, an associate director in the Sustainability Team at AESG

[00:00:41] Today we're talking about their new report titled Net Zero neighbourhoods

[00:00:46] And in this conversation we discuss why the neighbourhood scale is really like an optimal scale to look at decarbonisation

[00:00:53] Rather than only looking at individual buildings

[00:00:56] And why looking at the neighbourhood scale means you can find really innovative local solutions to delivering decarbonisation and wider sustainability

[00:01:06] We look at principles and case studies for delivering net zero neighbourhoods

[00:01:10] You can find in the report as well

[00:01:12] This includes new builds, but actually we mostly focus on retrofitting existing neighbourhoods for decarbonising

[00:01:18] Which I think is a really interesting and essential topic

[00:01:22] We talk about how to get communities involved and how to realise local benefits

[00:01:26] And in some cases these case studies are totally led by local communities in fact

[00:01:32] One of the biggest barriers often to delivering decarbonisation schemes or retrofitting schemes is funding

[00:01:38] The word is the money comes from

[00:01:39] So we do talk as well about the innovative funding mechanisms behind delivering net zero neighbourhoods

[00:01:47] I think for me this was a really great conversation

[00:01:50] Can be quite a technical subject, but I think Sam does a good job of bringing it to life with these case studies

[00:01:57] And showing that actually when you, you know, climate change, net zero neighbourhoods, huge global issues

[00:02:04] But once you zoom down to the local level, the neighbourhood level

[00:02:07] You can start to find really interesting and place specific ways of responding to those massive problems

[00:02:16] And so for me it's quite a hopeful conversation

[00:02:18] And I think we'll be very inspiring for you listening, particularly if you're involved with this kind of work

[00:02:23] Or whether you're just a local community member or local resident who's interested in these things

[00:02:29] Load the takeaways here in this episode

[00:02:33] If you enjoy this, you probably want to read the full report which is a really useful sort of summary and go to guide for these things

[00:02:42] And so the link to that is in the episode description

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[00:03:28] Just great great that you're listening and I hope you enjoy this conversation

[00:03:31] So we wanted to chat today about your report, Net Zero Neighborhoods

[00:03:42] So yeah, great if you could introduce that and just tell us what it's about why you know where did it come from etc

[00:03:48] Yeah, of course so it came about so we're working on the research piece with West London business and the LDN collective

[00:03:58] It kind of it came about through conversations with West London business and a number of issues that they are or they've come across

[00:04:09] Because of capacity issues with the electricity grid in West London

[00:04:14] So for those I'm sure most people probably are unaware but some people might be aware

[00:04:21] The capacity or the electricity grid is effectively at capacity in a number of West London borrowers

[00:04:28] Because of during the pandemic there are a number of data centers that were

[00:04:35] Developed and built which have effectively taken up all of the excess capacity in the system in the grid

[00:04:41] So developers in West London are actually looking at a 10 year wait in some circumstances for their new homes to be supplied with electricity

[00:04:52] So it's it's holding up a lot of development in West London which is causing knock on effects for businesses

[00:05:01] And obviously with the home shortages that we have in the capital and in the country generally it has a big knock on impacts there

[00:05:11] So we had a number of kind of initial discussions with West London business and the LDN collective

[00:05:19] To try and think about coming up with a white paper or research piece to look at solutions to this issue

[00:05:28] And we came across a report carried out by 3CI and catapult which was titled net zero neighborhoods

[00:05:37] So that's a fantastic report really recommend anyone listening to to go and look at that report very detail, very technical

[00:05:45] Report into net zero neighborhoods looking at energy and carbon but also looking at transport and waste as well

[00:05:54] So that in that report it's looking at I guess the kind of the delivery mechanisms and the financial elements and the commercial elements for developing net zero

[00:06:10] No net zero neighborhoods so looking at de-harmization at honor neighborhood scale as opposed to kind of just an individual building level and predominantly looking at retrofit of neighborhoods

[00:06:24] From that from that document we effectively we were we were looking at that and thought perhaps it could do with a bit of

[00:06:35] A layman's conversion perhaps and a document that's perhaps a bit more easier to understand for the wider industry

[00:06:45] As well as a piece that is looking more advocacy for net zero neighborhoods

[00:06:53] And to kind of generate confidence for designers planners and also investors

[00:07:03] To give them examples of where it's been done elsewhere

[00:07:07] Data on how it was funded data on what were the outcomes, what were the carbon savings and what was the cost savings and what looking at kind of return investment from the

[00:07:18] Investors perspective and yet to advocate for for more of this localised net zero neighborhoods to go ahead

[00:07:29] And to kind of give confidence to planners and design as well that this can be done and to unlock funding for this as well

[00:07:39] Okay brilliant yeah I'm really excited to get into some of the details on this

[00:07:44] I think I mean the first thing I think is is amazing is this thing of the day centers

[00:07:50] Goubling up so much energy capacity, I think it's you know, I think it's something that is so often hidden and you know so much of our lives are online now

[00:07:58] We forget that there is free infrastructure that's very energy intensive that allows all of this to happen

[00:08:04] Yeah, so I think that's quite interesting. I actually hadn't heard that at all that there was

[00:08:10] We had sort of gotten to capacity in a couple of West London barrels that's really interesting to hear

[00:08:16] Yeah, I think the is one of the main the main cables that connects to data

[00:08:23] To the internet comes I think comes from America or comes from the Atlantic so comes into what inter London from

[00:08:32] From

[00:08:33] From the West so comes through the West London barrels and a number of the data centers are located strategically close to that

[00:08:41] cable so that they can

[00:08:43] Optimize their internet speeds, so it was just kind of a happen because of the location or of the cable and

[00:08:52] Yeah, that's interesting and the other thing is is you're obviously this is obviously looking at a neighborhood scale

[00:08:58] Which is quite refreshing because I think a lot of the folks on sustainability in the industry has been very much about architecture and individual buildings and individual

[00:09:07] Developments. Why is it important to look at at a neighborhood scale instead of a building scale?

[00:09:13] I think it's it's important because of the connectivity between the spaces in terms of how they're used, optimizing

[00:09:23] How and where we're generating electricity

[00:09:29] When it's used in terms of the demand that the looking at kind of

[00:09:34] Potential storage options at a neighborhood level and obviously how

[00:09:42] How kind of the the neighborhoods

[00:09:45] Interact and how they how they're operated in reality there. There's never a building that

[00:09:50] Operated on its own unless it has an enormous amount of PV and

[00:09:57] An enlarged battery storage is unlike to kind of perform on its own

[00:10:03] So in reality we need to look at net zero from a neighborhood perspective and look at ways that we can share energy

[00:10:10] Both thermal energy and electrical energy if we're looking at

[00:10:14] Net what heat networks which we do in a number of our case studies and then on the electrical side

[00:10:21] If we've got different kind of use classes if we have industrial and office and retail

[00:10:26] Combining that with residential you obviously have

[00:10:30] Different periods of the day in which energy is consumed in those different spaces

[00:10:36] And you might have access renewables that you're able to use

[00:10:39] At the weekends for example in residential spaces that's not being used in kind of retail and

[00:10:46] In industrial so yeah it is super important

[00:10:49] If we're looking at trying to reduce our energy consumption and use more renewables at a local level to kind of look at it from a neighborhood

[00:10:58] Disrespective

[00:11:00] Okay, I mean that makes sense and I think just from the the couple of sort of large master plan

[00:11:04] Developments that are taking maybe looking to achieve net zero carbon or or a very low

[00:11:10] Operational carbon they do take a sort of that sort of network approach to their energy system where they have a sort of energy hub and they

[00:11:17] Concentralize some storage and have the PVs and that kind of thing so everything is shared across a wider area

[00:11:22] So yeah, absolutely is it the same principle if you were retrofitting an existing neighborhood effect effectively

[00:11:32] It's similar you obviously have different

[00:11:37] You're not able to optimize the energy efficiency and from kind of fabric improvements and orientation in that sense

[00:11:46] So you're already looking at a baseline that's higher than then you would have if you were looking at a new development but effectively

[00:11:56] A number of case studies that we're looking at

[00:11:59] Whether it's connecting

[00:12:02] Electrically connecting the

[00:12:05] The neighborhood or or retrofitting a heat network into the neighborhood

[00:12:09] How you would kind of power that

[00:12:12] It shouldn't differ too much between a new development and retrofit just for retrofit

[00:12:18] It's very tricky with existing infrastructure existing roads and stuff but if that wasn't an issue then

[00:12:26] Then you would you would do it in a similar way?

[00:12:28] Yeah, yeah, okay and this your your report net zero neighborhoods is it is a geared towards new new master plans or retrofitting existing places?

[00:12:39] We tried to do a bit of both. Yeah, so we've got a number of

[00:12:42] Case studies looking at

[00:12:45] Probably about half and half

[00:12:47] So we've got 10 case studies in total about about five of new build and five retrofit

[00:12:52] We wanted to cover both bases because it's important

[00:12:56] The most of the work that needs to be done in this basis is retrofit so

[00:13:00] We wanted to include as much as that as we could

[00:13:04] But at the same time for new builds it's

[00:13:07] It's making sure that we're optimizing all the opportunities that we can

[00:13:11] Whilst the being built because we know it's more costly and and more carbon intensive to then retrofit further down the line

[00:13:19] As well as

[00:13:22] Causing more high bills for the occupants

[00:13:25] Okay, great. Can you take us through some of the case studies that are in the report on you know real life net zero neighborhoods?

[00:13:32] So we have ten case studies

[00:13:36] Most of them only in the UK we do have so eight of them I believe in the UK and

[00:13:44] One of them is in Germany

[00:13:46] Voban which is Fribe which is Solicity

[00:13:50] And then one of them is in Vancouver actually looking at

[00:13:55] Waste heat from from sewage

[00:13:58] Providing hot water and heating to

[00:14:01] 34 buildings I think so a fairly large scheme utilizing waste industrial heat

[00:14:09] So I will probably first focus on

[00:14:13] Energise barnsley

[00:14:16] Which is a scheme

[00:14:20] A program set up in in Barnsley in in Yorkshire

[00:14:24] So it's a

[00:14:27] Program set up and run by the local community

[00:14:32] Utilizing kind of a combination in in terms of funding

[00:14:36] Through retail bonds and then loans from ethical lenders

[00:14:39] So I think 60% of the ownership in the community bond is from the local community

[00:14:47] So it's great that first of all it's fantastic that the local community

[00:14:52] are invested and able to profit and benefit from this scheme

[00:14:58] So effectively how the program works is they raised all this money as I mentioned three bonds

[00:15:06] And ethical funding

[00:15:09] They paid for a combination it's mostly

[00:15:13] It's a combination of insulation

[00:15:16] Renewables through rooftop solar

[00:15:19] And then energy storage

[00:15:21] And then they've set up a delivery vehicle

[00:15:26] For delivering and kind of implementing the pv and insulation

[00:15:32] And then they have also set up a mechanism for recuperating the costs

[00:15:39] So those that invested through the bond have a guaranteed interest rate that they paid per annum

[00:15:46] And the the lender as well also receives a guaranteed local return

[00:15:54] So effectively the

[00:15:57] The tenants of the buildings that receive the pv panels and the insulation and the sort of the batteries

[00:16:05] Will be paying

[00:16:08] Not not into a kind of a typical energy tariff

[00:16:13] But will be paying for their electricity to this separate entity

[00:16:17] Local deano that's been set up

[00:16:20] So

[00:16:22] At slightly reduced well

[00:16:25] Reduced rates compared to what they would be paying a local energy provider

[00:16:29] And in that sense they're able to recuperate costs

[00:16:34] And then reinvest that money as well into further the further roll out of more pv

[00:16:39] And battery storage and insulation such

[00:16:44] So it's an excellent example of

[00:16:48] Funded by the local community to delivered by the local community and then

[00:16:53] There was also benefiting in terms of the return on investment

[00:16:57] And further roll out of more

[00:17:01] De-carbonization measures

[00:17:04] That's really fascinating was that

[00:17:07] Did that begin as a sort of community initiative like how does that get off the ground

[00:17:11] Bridging me

[00:17:13] Yeah, I believe so so it was set up by

[00:17:17] The group called the community or barn's

[00:17:22] Community energy coalition

[00:17:24] So with the aim of generating and saving energy together for the benefit of everyone

[00:17:30] So they

[00:17:33] Kind of the kickstarted the project

[00:17:36] And then we're able to get the ethical lendron on board

[00:17:41] And then we're able to look at

[00:17:43] And then we're able to re-tel bond and kind of generating more funding in that sense

[00:17:48] So it's very much

[00:17:51] From the idea and initiative from the local community

[00:17:56] That's so interesting, I mean, I'm always in all of

[00:18:03] I'm always in all of the sort of communities that just

[00:18:06] Self-start and get these things to happen

[00:18:08] And I think we'll be great if there was more mechanisms and more guidance

[00:18:13] I suppose for other communities to sort of learn from that

[00:18:16] And then get the ball rolling

[00:18:18] You know quicker maybe replicate the same model

[00:18:21] Yeah, absolutely and I think that's

[00:18:24] Probably our primary aim is for

[00:18:28] Someone to look at this dot at the document that we've developed

[00:18:33] We've got all the kind of the key statistics or the key data in there

[00:18:35] And to take it away and say, why can't I do that in my local community

[00:18:40] For this one and a designer that's looking at another case study

[00:18:44] Why can't I do that on the project that I'm working on

[00:18:47] Investors that are looking at it to look at it and say, hey, there's a really good

[00:18:51] Opportunity to unlock private

[00:18:54] Private capital and private money

[00:18:57] In projects like this get decent return on investment

[00:19:00] And it's ticks all the boxes in terms of the good their degree

[00:19:04] Investments that they need to hit these days

[00:19:07] Yeah, it's that's exactly what we want to achieve

[00:19:11] Yeah, and the innovation is in the finance model rather than any sort of technical model

[00:19:17] Because we're using technology that exists

[00:19:20] Yeah, exactly yeah, and I think that's a very good point because a lot of a lot of the time people

[00:19:27] With or think innovation will immediately jump to technology

[00:19:32] So some kind of silver bullet in terms of

[00:19:36] Fusion or some other

[00:19:39] Unlimited energy source that's going to save us from

[00:19:43] The climate change, but

[00:19:46] Sometimes it's kind of simple

[00:19:49] Collaborational simple financial mechanisms that are set up that just get everything going

[00:19:54] Get everything off the ground but in that in a sense they innovative but at the same time pretty simple

[00:20:01] So I don't know much about barrensly

[00:20:04] Can you just paint a picture of what kind of a place is it like a town in the Yorkshire Dales quite a low density like kind of thing

[00:20:12] Yeah, it's a

[00:20:15] I've reached size town in Yorkshire

[00:20:18] There's nothing

[00:20:20] I don't want to be too offensive, but it's a standard town in a UK county really is nothing

[00:20:31] Overly

[00:20:34] Special about or unique about it's building stock or

[00:20:39] Deletuous to grid or anything like that there. It's nothing to suggest that it's not replicable effectively

[00:20:46] In any other town so

[00:20:50] Yeah, and it to be honest it's if anything it's fairly far north in the UK and more southern counties are likely to get a higher generation from

[00:21:00] PV and more sunny days. So if anything it's more doable in

[00:21:06] Sussex and can

[00:21:09] Hampshire and other kind of counties for the south

[00:21:13] Yeah, yeah, that's good points and I'm I suppose one of them thinking as well as a and maybe you're going to this with another case study, but is there's this trade off between

[00:21:23] Maybe a low rise

[00:21:25] Lower density place which has a lot of roof space for PVs and maybe more sort of free space for battery storage and that kind of thing against a more high identity neighbourhoods where

[00:21:36] Then it's really limited and you're maybe having some competition for like green roofs and things like that as well

[00:21:42] Yeah, changes things quite a bit

[00:21:45] It does absolutely yeah, I think I think I saw a recent article on

[00:21:53] The optimised building height for sustainability. I think it was

[00:21:57] Think it was around five or six stories was the optimum

[00:22:01] Because then you can still have a green roof generate a decent amount of

[00:22:08] Renewable energy on your roof, but then you have the sufficient density to enable sustainable transport and such as well

[00:22:16] So yeah, it's it's difficult and there's tradeoffs in both for kind of a single house if you've got a south facing roof

[00:22:24] There's no reason why you can't be built free really my if you can put in

[00:22:31] And it's a efficient solar and that's a bit of a segue but

[00:22:36] Octopus and another developer apologies are caught member their name hill homes perhaps

[00:22:44] Or looking at developing the first zero bill

[00:22:48] Development in I think it's in south Wales, so I should know this

[00:22:54] But with sufficient planning sufficient orientation

[00:22:58] Thought given to orientation and building fabric a good pv array on your roof and then battery storage

[00:23:07] Octopus of guarantee that development is going to be built free for for at least ten years, so it's completely durable at that scale

[00:23:16] If you're looking at it from a broader holistic perspective then you're more likely to be somewhere further out of town

[00:23:24] You're likely to be more dependent on the car, so you do need to factor that in

[00:23:28] But if you're looking at just the built environment then

[00:23:31] Then it can be effectively net zero, so I think

[00:23:36] Broadly to kind of circle back and answer your question

[00:23:39] The things that we can be doing, there's different approaches, whether you're looking at low rise or looking at high rise

[00:23:45] And I think it's just the case of doing the best that we can in those different vocations

[00:23:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah, great should we have another case study

[00:23:54] Yeah, sure

[00:23:56] Next one I wanted kind of a similar theme

[00:24:00] But slightly different in terms of how they've gone about it is

[00:24:05] It's an initiative developed by Kenza who are a

[00:24:10] Heat pump manufacturer effectively and contractor

[00:24:14] And it's called Heat the Streets, their program

[00:24:17] So it's based in a Cornwall

[00:24:21] There's a number of different sites in Cornwall, number of different towns

[00:24:26] Similarly

[00:24:28] Relatively kind of suburban housing low rise

[00:24:33] What they are doing there is there was in the is predominantly focused on

[00:24:41] Council housing and social housing

[00:24:45] So what they were looking at there was a number of there

[00:24:49] What kind of catalyzed the approach there, a number of their occupants had very high energy bills

[00:24:55] And struggling to heat their homes in a number of cases

[00:24:59] So what kinds of have gone in and done is installed

[00:25:05] A Heat network, a ground source heat network

[00:25:08] Which effectively is a number of boreholes

[00:25:11] Underneath the roads in the street

[00:25:14] With horizontal pipe works connecting into the homes as well

[00:25:20] So the majority of the infrastructure is subsurface in the ground

[00:25:24] And then you have a small unit that's been retrofitted into a number of homes

[00:25:29] And what they, so they can serve effectively a paid for that system to be installed

[00:25:38] With local authority backing

[00:25:41] But I think the vast majority of the costs were provided by canza

[00:25:46] And then they effectively become the DNA for that area in the sense that

[00:25:53] The occupants no longer pay gas, stand in charges and gas bills

[00:25:59] Or they still play electricity for their unregulated usage from computers and other bits

[00:26:07] But just to them at heating and hot water

[00:26:10] They would no longer pay gas, stand in charges and gas tariffs

[00:26:14] But they would pay canza, stand in charge and then a fixed amount per kilowatt hour for their heat provision

[00:26:23] Sorry, a bit technical

[00:26:26] Interesting to know

[00:26:28] And they would have provided at lower costs

[00:26:32] Much lower cost than what they were paying for their gas

[00:26:36] So really efficient system, they've designed, so it's up to

[00:26:42] 500% efficiency, they get from their system

[00:26:46] Because these boreholes are located underneath hard asphalt and hard infrastructure

[00:26:52] You've actually got kind of passive heating of those hard surfaces

[00:26:56] Which then heats up the boreholes and heats up the horizontal pipe work

[00:27:02] Which ditch distributes into the homes

[00:27:06] So the heat pump system is just extracting the heat from those from that kind of distribution network

[00:27:14] And it's enabled the

[00:27:18] The homes to be provided with low cost heat

[00:27:22] Which is enabled

[00:27:24] To be able to heat their homes to higher more comfortable temperatures and what they were previously

[00:27:31] So

[00:27:33] We thought as a really good example of a mechanism that unlocks private funding

[00:27:40] For the benefit from a carbon perspective

[00:27:45] Benefit from energy perspective, but also kind of the socio economic benefits

[00:27:48] Reduction in bills and a more comfortable environment for those occupants of the social housing

[00:27:54] And it's clearly

[00:27:57] Beneficial for kids to do so and they're looking at further sites to kind of roll this out

[00:28:04] And it's just a fantastic way of

[00:28:07] I guess it's shifting the money from them paying

[00:28:10] To utility companies to paying kids

[00:28:13] But doing so in a

[00:28:15] Low carbon manner

[00:28:17] Yeah, it's good in that sense

[00:28:20] I mean the socio economic benefits and the fuel poverty benefits and that kind of thing is

[00:28:25] It sort of has to be part of the argument for doing these things doesn't it because it's

[00:28:29] I mean I think if you add up the cost of investing in heat pumps and

[00:28:35] And that kind of thing versus you know the cost of doing nothing obviously it is a big investment of front

[00:28:41] But

[00:28:43] When you when you do the accounting that is more multifaceted to include obviously you know reductions of carbon emissions

[00:28:50] But also you know that aspect for for people who are struggling to heat their homes

[00:28:56] I mean it's just such a such a powerful message I think

[00:29:00] Yeah, definitely and I think that's where we need

[00:29:05] These collaboration

[00:29:07] Between public bodies and private bodies to kind of identify these opportunities and I identify where there are

[00:29:15] More risks from a socio economic perspective and try and leverage

[00:29:19] Private funding to to unlock it in in as many cases as we can

[00:29:26] Yeah, and it's is it

[00:29:30] Is it so it sounds like they're benefiting from a sort of urban heat side

[00:29:35] And the fact is that which you were saying with you being under hard surfaces in a sense

[00:29:40] Yeah, so

[00:29:42] Yeah, because it's extract it

[00:29:44] The ground is a more stable temperature typically than air so a ground or seat pump you get a higher efficiency

[00:29:51] Then then you would do from an air source heat pump

[00:29:53] Big yeah because of the locating the bore holes in the pipe work within

[00:29:59] Yeah within the roads effectively or underneath the roads the able to

[00:30:05] Benefit from the kind of the passive heat from the sign as well

[00:30:09] As well as

[00:30:11] I don't know if it goes as far as being

[00:30:14] Interseasonal in terms of its heat storage, but obviously in the summer you can get some of those surfaces can get pretty hot

[00:30:22] So the efficiency to provide

[00:30:25] Hot water during the summer months is it's likely to be very very efficient

[00:30:29] Because of that

[00:30:32] Yeah, yeah, I can imagine for sure. I mean I talk a lot on the podcast about

[00:30:36] The urban heat island effect and needing to cool cities and that kind of thing, but it's quite interesting to hear that there are some benefits as well

[00:30:43] Yeah, and it's

[00:30:46] Yeah, this is obviously on a fairly low rise suburban scale, but if you're looking at

[00:30:51] Looking at it in the city, there's a huge amount of heat and heat up and heat on the fact that is a big issue in terms of health

[00:31:00] And

[00:31:01] Placing additional

[00:31:03] Capacity on cooling systems, but

[00:31:06] But yeah potentially there's this opportunity for that heat to be at least funneled into hot water in the summer months because we still

[00:31:14] Everyone's obviously still taking showers and using hot water for cleaning and such so yeah

[00:31:20] Surprise, it hasn't kind of been looked at in further detail because then effectively you're calling the space as well

[00:31:26] If you're extracting that heat, it's providing a dual benefit

[00:31:29] Interesting, okay and and it was on that topic about about

[00:31:34] Getting waste teas from other sources

[00:31:37] You know what about like these data centers. It's the West London, probably kicking out loads of use

[00:31:43] Yeah, that's exactly our thinking we were looking for a good case study to look at waste heat from a data center

[00:31:52] The best one we found was in island actually was in talact

[00:31:58] Talact is an old few

[00:32:00] Talah

[00:32:02] Got the right person to ask yeah a lot of silence letters in Irish unfortunately

[00:32:07] Is that

[00:32:10] Yes, there's so there's a we would we kind of desperately trying to find a good example of retrofit of a data center to provide

[00:32:19] Heat and hot water

[00:32:22] We couldn't find a good enough example, but the example we did find is for a new build which is utilizing waste tea from an

[00:32:31] Amazon yes, it's Amazon sorry confused with Amazon and Google and Amazon data center

[00:32:37] To provide heat to a number of public buildings as well as over 100 affordable apartments

[00:32:44] So

[00:32:46] Effectively exactly is the same as what we were just talking about instead of

[00:32:51] Instead of calling that data center you're extracting that heat and utilizing it for heat

[00:32:57] Hot water in public buildings and affordable apartments

[00:33:02] So you're turning a negative into positive and then also solving that initial issue so I

[00:33:08] Think this this is a huge

[00:33:11] Huge potential in West London for this to be looked at from a retrofit perspective

[00:33:18] And I think that's perhaps some innovation in that space that needs to occur before we can kind of unlock that but

[00:33:25] The yeah, this case study it showed that the technologies there. It's I think it's probably more

[00:33:31] Infrastructural issues that you would kind of stop it from taking off from a retrofit perspective

[00:33:38] But um that this plant this certainly plenty of

[00:33:44] Energy available from data centers because yeah, there obviously using a lot of electricity and we want to be

[00:33:51] Instead of then doubling up and calling those spaces you're using electricity twice you want to be utilizing that waste tea

[00:33:59] So you're only using it once and reducing electricity consumption

[00:34:03] And both yeah, exactly and you met you mentioned earlier about a new case study where they're using is it from a waste treatment plant or something

[00:34:14] Yeah, so we have two case studies which we found

[00:34:19] Utilizing for a waste from yes, so it's treatment plant

[00:34:23] One in

[00:34:26] Scotland

[00:34:27] Which is

[00:34:29] Board as college

[00:34:32] So that's a really good example because it's a retrofit

[00:34:36] Example

[00:34:39] Where by the college the university as as connected

[00:34:45] This specific system designed specific system

[00:34:50] To to extract the width the heat from the sew system and provide it to

[00:34:55] Both their kind of modern buildings as well as interestingly enough some of their historic listed buildings as well

[00:35:01] So it's a really good example of it kind of showcasing that you can

[00:35:07] Connect this kind of innovative new technology to old

[00:35:13] Hlisted buildings and it's still kind of providing sufficient heat and hot water

[00:35:18] And then the other example that we have is from Canada

[00:35:23] This was on the news about a month ago

[00:35:26] Perhaps a bit longer than that actually which some people might have seen

[00:35:30] Which is on a far bigger scale

[00:35:35] So it's

[00:35:37] Connecting to the city of Vancouver's sewage system

[00:35:42] And extracting heat from that providing it to over six million square feet of residential commercial and institutional space

[00:35:53] Over 34 buildings I believe so a huge

[00:35:57] A huge amount of space that's heat is heat not water provided just

[00:36:03] From a renewable source effectively

[00:36:07] And yeah the heat trapped in sewage

[00:36:12] You able to gain very good efficiencies kind of similar

[00:36:17] And then higher in some cases then the grounds or seat pump so

[00:36:21] Yeah there's this a number of examples that

[00:36:24] I kind of utilize in that technology so it's certainly feasible

[00:36:29] And yeah we'd the kind of the two different scales that we provided in our case study show that it's feasible from a relatively small scale to a

[00:36:37] An almost scale frankly

[00:36:40] Gosh that's fascinating okay, I'll definitely look into that and maybe try and get someone from Vancouver on talk about that

[00:36:46] It's very exciting when you see these things scaled up you know to such a such a large scale

[00:36:51] Yeah absolutely is that interestingly enough on Vancouver they

[00:36:56] They went through significant

[00:36:58] Public engagement to decide on the energy system that was going to go in initially

[00:37:03] It was going to be a biomass boiler which has its

[00:37:09] Arguing credentials

[00:37:14] Yeah, very controversial

[00:37:17] I'd argue it's probably not very renewable

[00:37:21] Yeah, or not really really much

[00:37:23] Essentially, is that it?

[00:37:24] Yeah exactly similar to kind of tracks

[00:37:29] But because of

[00:37:31] Concerns around local air quality

[00:37:34] As well as the sustainability of the development

[00:37:38] They got a lot of negative feedback from that consultation process and went down a different route

[00:37:44] So this is that the system and Canada's actually run was developed and run by Vancouver city council as well interestingly

[00:37:51] So they, although yeah, they obviously had to pay for the initial capital costs

[00:37:57] They're able to recuperate

[00:38:00] The benefits from from the system in terms of the bills that the tenants are paying to them

[00:38:07] As well as the kind of the local socio economic benefits that they gain from having cleaner air

[00:38:14] And having a general, yeah, nice system that's cheaper and better with air typically

[00:38:21] Yeah, it's interesting reminds me of an example

[00:38:25] I think in Paris and there might be other cities that are doing as well on the opposite side rather than capturing waste heat

[00:38:31] They've developed a system where they can move cold river water

[00:38:35] As a cooling system you know through streets and buildings

[00:38:40] Which again is is really fascinating because it's you know, it's going to the water will be flowing through anyway

[00:38:47] So why not just I've heard it to cut you know pull some heat out of the city is really interesting

[00:38:53] Yes, that sounds very interesting

[00:38:55] Yeah, I guess a lot of the water from Paris and in France flows down from the Alps doesn't it so it's probably quite nice and cool

[00:39:03] So yeah, yeah, that's a great yell looking to that

[00:39:09] We've got sort of where less than 15 minutes left. Can't believe I quickly that has gone was there any other sort of case studies or any other points you want to raise

[00:39:18] Well, that's a

[00:39:21] And perhaps I'll go through another case study quickly

[00:39:27] Actually perhaps we're just yeah, I'll just

[00:39:31] Chat about the kind of another section that we got in the report actually is is future gazing

[00:39:36] So learning from the past and looking into the future so this is

[00:39:41] Section for

[00:39:44] Developments that perhaps are

[00:39:46] Still in in the design phase as well as kind of more innovative concepts that are being being developed

[00:39:53] So we've got a number of

[00:39:56] Different examples one of which is the zero bills home, which I mentioned the octopus

[00:40:01] And the first kind of pilot is in south Wales, but I think they're looking to partner up and have joint ventures and develop that in further locations

[00:40:13] Other

[00:40:15] Systems as well there's

[00:40:18] We were chatting with a

[00:40:21] A very interesting and innovative company called SNRG who are looking at

[00:40:28] They kind of in a similar sense to the case studies that I went through that are providing

[00:40:34] The kinds of one which is providing the the grant or seat pump and recharging

[00:40:39] The tenants in that sense is an RG do a very similar thing but from the lectures

[00:40:45] Electrical side so they will pay for pay for kind of the upfront capital cost

[00:40:51] Of a solar system with batteries predominantly in industrial areas there are huge numbers of industrial roofs that are underutilised in terms of their

[00:41:01] Capability to generate

[00:41:05] Electrists even PV and so what in a number of situations and we spoke to a

[00:41:11] A few

[00:41:14] Investors and kind of developers in the industrial space and

[00:41:18] A big issue that they have is that they either can't fund it or they

[00:41:24] Generate there's no benefit from them generating or maximizing the PV on their roof in terms of

[00:41:31] Feed-in tariffs or an export tariffs feed it in tariffs obviously scraps a few years ago and then export tariffs the rate is typically so low that it doesn't warrant doesn't make financial sense for them to do so

[00:41:44] So

[00:41:46] So what S and RG this yeah to a few FFFs

[00:41:50] Exails or S and RG do is they pay for the upfront capital cost and then will effectively sell the electricity back to

[00:42:00] The the company that are occupying the industrial space reduce rate so

[00:42:07] Sort of 25% or so less than what they would be paying anyway

[00:42:12] So it's a win-win for all parties

[00:42:15] S and RG retain kind of control and the

[00:42:19] Management of the PV and the batteries, but then sell it back to

[00:42:24] Yeah, the occupants sorry, so that

[00:42:27] So this both kind of the

[00:42:30] De-carbonization

[00:42:32] Element that the the companies able to talk about and kind of report as well as reducing costs so it's win-win for them

[00:42:40] And S and RG have made it work in terms of their financial model that it the kind of return on investment for them makes sense

[00:42:49] Another

[00:42:50] Kind of innovative area that

[00:42:54] As been kind of looked at in terms of utilizing

[00:42:59] Commercial space and the optimization and

[00:43:02] Yeah, the optimization of roof space in particular is looking at specific

[00:43:07] Terrace so

[00:43:11] Discussions with

[00:43:14] Developers and investors in the industrial space they as I mentioned they typically unable to get to all their unwilling to want to

[00:43:23] Decow all of their roof space and PV because what the benefit is

[00:43:27] For for them in terms the export terrors

[00:43:31] But what they

[00:43:34] Well, they can if they're kind of occupied if they are a

[00:43:37] Developer or portfolio manager that has a number of different buildings

[00:43:41] Typically you if you generated your PV electricity from PV on one building

[00:43:47] You wouldn't be able to utilize that

[00:43:49] PV in other buildings, but there's now tariffs that being set up

[00:43:54] By a number of companies at octopus talking about them a lot doing some really good work

[00:44:00] But they are set up a tariff now where whereby you can

[00:44:04] Say if you're if you have a number of industrial buildings you have

[00:44:09] Full pppv on all the roofs and then you have a number of office buildings in the city for example

[00:44:14] You're able to

[00:44:16] Utilize the PV that's generated there

[00:44:19] Within your office buildings so you can save on costs and you can save on carbon and that also kind of relates to the

[00:44:26] The reporting that you do as well and you're able to kind of outline that your

[00:44:32] Net zero carbon obviously as it as a kind of a portfolio isn't

[00:44:38] Installed for individual buildings

[00:44:41] But a verbal diarrhea

[00:44:44] So yeah, a lot lots of kind of

[00:44:47] Different kind of mechanisms that are being set up

[00:44:51] The tariff one is so simple but just something that's simple which can use

[00:44:56] It's just unlikely to unlock it just it just makes financial sense for the businesses now to do that

[00:45:03] And if they don't want to go down that model

[00:45:07] They don't want to pay for front then you have a business like SNRG

[00:45:10] They're happy to come in and kind of operate the system and then sell it

[00:45:13] So the electricity back to you so it's kind of

[00:45:16] Having simple mechanisms like that that unlock funding

[00:45:21] Are a number of areas that we're looking into in terms of future gazing

[00:45:25] The majority of the

[00:45:29] Technical innovations of I have kind of

[00:45:32] There's no silver bullet coming most of them are kind of well known

[00:45:37] I think it's the the areas of

[00:45:41] Utilizing waste to eat which are probably the areas for

[00:45:45] Most innovation so we're still looking at there's a development in

[00:45:50] Islington which is the pilot scheme which is looking at

[00:45:53] Extracting waste eat from the underground which have been talked about for a number of years now that's

[00:46:00] I think it's going through planning or it's going through planning it's going through design at the moment

[00:46:05] So that's amazing that will be

[00:46:08] Really innovative and if they can get some good data from that and show you case that it's

[00:46:13] A vision and cost effective then then hopefully that will be rolled out across across London

[00:46:19] So yeah, we're kind of trying to look at a combination of

[00:46:23] Technological as well as kind of financial

[00:46:27] Mechanism type innovations that will likely be how we can kind of push forward more

[00:46:34] De-commonization on the neighborhood scale in the future

[00:46:38] Fantastic. Yeah, someone please pull the heat out of the central line

[00:46:41] It's way too

[00:46:44] Yeah, yeah, this

[00:46:47] As definitely the worst line isn't it's a hot-to-slide

[00:46:51] Yeah, even in winter it feels

[00:46:54] It really hot that line doesn't it yeah

[00:46:57] So we're also not wasting to be tapped. Yeah, well, I imagine all of the lines that feel comfortable and

[00:47:03] I think it's a bit of a comfortable and throughout the year or a cold

[00:47:07] So yeah, it's like what we were talking about earlier

[00:47:10] If you can extract that heat

[00:47:12] Instead of cooling it your is a win-win because then you can utilise that heat elsewhere

[00:47:17] And you don't need to be really cool. So great

[00:47:20] I think for me was this conversation as highlighted is that

[00:47:24] You know what depends on the scale you look at

[00:47:28] What solutions you can come up with because I think when you look at

[00:47:30] You know at the scale of a country or like we look at the UK

[00:47:34] And we think how do we transition to net zero then you're talking about huge huge wind farms in Scotland

[00:47:41] You know mass retrofits, you know who's gonna pay for that all these sort of very tricky things

[00:47:46] Once you zoom down to the neighborhood level

[00:47:48] You can stack being really innovative and using you know the local things that are around and coming up with like locally based solutions

[00:47:54] And yeah, it almost even though it's still a massive issue

[00:47:57] It sort of feels like you can start solving local

[00:48:01] You know the local challenges here and there and you can sort of if we can get lots of community groups lots of energy providers

[00:48:09] Sort of doing this in various places it feels like real progress could be made.

[00:48:13] Yeah definitely yeah, I think we need a combination of that kind of top down

[00:48:18] Generation big wind farms as well as local initiatives

[00:48:22] If we're gonna get close to sort of net zero targets

[00:48:27] It needs to come from both

[00:48:30] And yeah, I think yeah doing this research is

[00:48:33] Definitely made me more optimistic in terms of the work that's been done and the possibility for unlocking

[00:48:41] Funding and developing in the in space

[00:48:45] Thank you so much. It's been a great combination. We enjoyed it.

[00:48:48] There were thanks Ross. Yeah, yeah really good to chat