#85: Using 3D Modelling, Digital Twins and Generative Design for Sustainability, with VU.CITY

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Green Urbanist, podcast for urbanists fighting climate change. I'm Ross.

[00:00:14] Hello everyone, welcome back to the podcast Ross here. Today's episode is a conversation with

[00:00:29] Andrew Bulmore of View City. We sit down to discuss how 3D modelling, digital twins and

[00:00:35] artificial intelligence tools like generative design can be used to do better evidence

[00:00:41] based planning and design and get more sustainable outcomes from new development or retrofit or

[00:00:47] extensions to existing buildings. As you can imagine this is quite a visual episode so

[00:00:54] I invite you to just open the description or the episode notes on your podcast app,

[00:00:59] have a look at the View City website while you're listening to this and you just get

[00:01:04] a sense of actually what the software looks like as we're talking about it because it'll

[00:01:08] probably make a bit more sense to you but if you can do that, if you're commuting or watching

[00:01:13] the dishes or something, don't worry. Have a listen, you'll still enjoy it and just have

[00:01:18] a look at the website later. It's definitely worth checking out.

[00:01:25] Thank you so much for having me here in View City's lovely offices.

[00:01:29] Do you want to just introduce yourself briefly for the audience?

[00:01:32] Yeah, sure. I'm Andrew from the commercial team at View City. I've been here for around

[00:01:36] five years so not quite from the beginning but close enough I'd say. I've seen the company really

[00:01:43] grow over those last few years and yeah definitely excited about what we've got coming up in the

[00:01:48] future too. Brilliant. So we want to talk today about 3D modelling and how that works for doing

[00:01:55] better planning, better design and in particular sustainability. Can you tell us a bit more

[00:02:00] about what View City is if people haven't heard about it? Yeah so View City, like I said it's

[00:02:06] been kind of going for five years. In that time we've developed modelling of cities so what it is

[00:02:13] effectively is a smart cities platform that allows architects, developers, planners, anyone working

[00:02:20] in the built environment really to understand their buildings in accurate context. So we started in

[00:02:26] London. We've currently modelled 1700 square kilometres of London so that's the whole of the city,

[00:02:32] everything within a London borough. We do cover some of the kind of areas surrounding that as well.

[00:02:38] We've moved into kind of slough and stains and other odd locations around as well

[00:02:47] but yeah so we, the clue's in the name, we are kind of city based looking at very urban areas.

[00:02:54] We now cover 26 cities across the UK all to that same level of accuracy so we model

[00:03:00] everything to 15 centimetres accuracy at rooftops, at terrain, at trees as well to really help those

[00:03:07] that are working in planning and development to understand the impacts of the buildings

[00:03:12] in their environment in the context that they're working in as well. Yeah one of the key things

[00:03:18] is keeping those models up to date so of course we fly over the city and capture that imagery,

[00:03:24] capture that data but the first thing that happens is it goes out of date very quickly.

[00:03:29] Especially somewhere like London. Especially somewhere like London, especially in a London

[00:03:33] where there are hundreds of applications going through being approved on a monthly basis. We

[00:03:39] need to be on top of that to give a true representation of what's going on in our city.

[00:03:44] And you've gotten international as well haven't you?

[00:03:46] We have in parts. Our focus at the moment is very much the UK, UK planning

[00:03:54] but that doesn't mean we're limited in where we could reach. We offer clients or specific customers

[00:04:00] kind of bespoke city licenses and that could be anywhere we can model anywhere in the world.

[00:04:07] Yeah it is great and I mean like what I can vouch for is I've used it myself in practice

[00:04:11] working as a consultant and there's just not really any alternative because

[00:04:18] what you get access to once you get into the city is just incredible.

[00:04:22] What I've used it for is for things like testing, largest scale master plans, testing,

[00:04:29] doing building height studies or tall building studies for local authorities

[00:04:34] in London and other cities around the UK and it's just an incredible sort of

[00:04:40] level of information and data that you can have at your fingertips very, very quickly.

[00:04:43] That otherwise is a very time consuming process to do. So yeah it's really great.

[00:04:51] And I think obviously one of the benefits of the 3D modelling

[00:04:56] whether it's View City or any other sort of 3D models is just that you can convey

[00:05:00] that three-dimensional information in a way that you can to plans and that makes it

[00:05:04] really good for engaging with members of the public, people who aren't built environment professionals.

[00:05:10] But yeah can you tell us a bit more about like how people use it,

[00:05:13] View City for that like communication aspect and particularly how that might relate to sustainability?

[00:05:18] Yeah so I mean View City is a very visual platform. It's taking exactly some of those

[00:05:26] data sets that are typically formed in 2D and bringing them into the 3D environment,

[00:05:32] making them more immersive, making them easier to understand for those that probably aren't used to

[00:05:37] looking at 2D GIS data layers in plans that are often fairly hidden in the and websites on

[00:05:44] local authority website, websites and things like that. So yes I definitely can go through that

[00:05:51] in a bit more detail. Kind of what I think we have to understand sometimes is that not everyone

[00:06:00] kind of takes information in the same way. I think personally I struggle sometimes to read a bit

[00:06:06] of information and then somehow form a kind of visual of that in my head. But when I see it,

[00:06:13] then I can see it on paper or I can see it in 3D, it's more I guess the scale is represented

[00:06:20] better and it allows you to kind of understand then the actual kind of the actual outcomes or the

[00:06:29] actual limitations or impact of something that you're trying to represent. But yeah so if we're

[00:06:36] looking at communications of that data, we're seeing View City as an example being used quite

[00:06:42] heavily in public communication or consultation. Really offering those that wouldn't have access

[00:06:52] to even viewing these things in 3D at a very early stage. So of course often through planning,

[00:06:58] accurate visual representations might be required or created or CGI's might be

[00:07:03] required or created at the right stage. They're expensive and they take a lot of time

[00:07:10] to do. So how can we portray or how can we share information with the public in a kind of cheaper

[00:07:15] way or quicker way more accessible but also easier to then kind of react in a quick

[00:07:22] proactive way with the local residents or local authority when we're kind of putting

[00:07:27] together ideas and plans and things like that. So through public consultation definitely it

[00:07:33] can be a really good way of representing that data. That might be a view from the ground,

[00:07:38] that might be overlaying the listed buildings around the site or heritage sites around the site.

[00:07:44] It might be looking at the potential sunlight impact of a building that's going in as well.

[00:07:52] But all of these things we can react or not necessarily react, we can be really proactive

[00:07:57] in visualising those in a quick way given that all the data is available there ready to

[00:08:03] kind of go straight away. Yeah, exactly and I think that's just a bit of a seat to see

[00:08:09] what is there already. What is in the planning pipeline which I think is a really good feature

[00:08:12] of U-SITC as well that like upcoming developments you can switch on that toggle to see what's

[00:08:17] coming up and then you can put in your own proposals, just rough massing models

[00:08:22] and you get a sense of how it all fits together in a way that is really difficult

[00:08:25] without that. So yeah, well that's it. Definitely keeping it up to date with

[00:08:30] those planning proposals, that information that's coming through planning that residents might not

[00:08:35] necessarily be aware of or others in the whole planning process might not necessarily be aware of

[00:08:41] can really kind of add that level of data to that site and knowledge to that site to understand

[00:08:47] what the potential is 100%. Yeah, exactly. And what about some of those other like

[00:08:53] data layers you have on there, things like cycle networks and census data and that

[00:08:57] kind of thing? Yeah, we've got hundreds of data sets across all of the cities that we're working in.

[00:09:02] A lot of those data sets are publicly available but as I said before it's just making sure that they

[00:09:07] are viewable and understandable, understood well to the kind of public and those applicants

[00:09:14] that are working as well. But in terms of data layers, yeah we take a wide spectrum all

[00:09:19] the way from kind of environmental data, data layers looking at flood risk zones and

[00:09:26] noise data within there. So along railway lines we can see what the decibel levels are across there

[00:09:35] same with roads as well. Yeah you mentioned kind of those more kind of social economic

[00:09:40] data sets things like deprivation areas. What else do we have in there? We've got so much

[00:09:47] crime areas kind of looking at the even looking at house prices across sites as well. Yeah,

[00:09:58] through some of our partners we have some of that data in there as well. But it all comes together

[00:10:03] to build a really good picture of that site and understand what might be sustainable now,

[00:10:09] might not necessarily be sustainable in the future or what was sustainable is might not

[00:10:13] be sustainable now. So it's taking in all of those factors not just the kind of green element but

[00:10:19] also the social element, how does a place work for those people living there? Yeah I think that's

[00:10:25] so key because like if we take, I always take you know quite a broad view of sustainability on

[00:10:29] this podcast of being about not just about carbon and emissions but about social aspects

[00:10:34] and ultimately about creating good places, that place making aspect where people can live

[00:10:40] healthy happy lives basically. And I think delivering development or projects that fulfill that

[00:10:49] you have to have good analysis behind that so I think giving people access to this sort of

[00:10:55] this level of information so easily and at their fingertips is like really really helpful for that.

[00:11:01] So I think particularly things like noise and air quality data or anything like that which is

[00:11:06] often wouldn't be the starting point maybe for designers you know looking if they were looking

[00:11:12] doing analysis in a traditional way but if that can be brought to their mind straight away they

[00:11:15] might think oh we might need to step the building back put some vegetation in near this road like

[00:11:20] you know we don't want habitable windows by this railway line or whatever that might tell you.

[00:11:25] It's instantly giving you that information at the start of the design process so it's really

[00:11:28] good. Yeah I think that was my first point when we initially discussed kind of having this

[00:11:34] conversation was of course View City can allow for kind of sustainable development but there's no

[00:11:41] magic button to say develop a make this sustainable it involves those decision makers around the

[00:11:49] table to actually understand the data that's being handed to them review it analyze it come

[00:11:55] up with those kind of good decisions or make those good decisions. For the good of the

[00:12:01] site for the good of the kind of projects in the future not just what's relevant for now as well so

[00:12:09] but yeah the more you think about it the more layers you can kind of strip back and the

[00:12:13] more sustainability comes into that conversation around where 3d models can be really useful in

[00:12:19] that conversation that process and the data that's kind of showing on top of them. It just

[00:12:24] means you can be a bit more proactive with the way you're using it as well.

[00:12:28] Yeah instead of being an afterthought just very quickly sift through the data

[00:12:34] and visualize it straight away and take what you need from that at a very early stage as well

[00:12:40] without having to do the kind of background work of getting a format data into your your

[00:12:48] GIS software and then visualizing that in a way that's readable. Yeah it's really just making

[00:12:54] sure all of that's kind of hands off from the developer the architect side and you can just

[00:13:01] start visualizing it and reviewing it really quickly. Let's get on to talking a bit about

[00:13:05] I suppose that design process and how people might be using it. View city or other similar tools

[00:13:11] in terms of delivering more sustainable projects so yeah of course I'm going to talk about

[00:13:16] View City a lot because that's what I'm talking about every day all day every day but

[00:13:21] yeah if we just kind of go through that workflow that process it obviously starts with data it

[00:13:27] probably starts with the site but how do you pick the site? How do you know what you're going to do

[00:13:32] with the site once you have it perhaps you're an asset manager or a developer and you have land

[00:13:39] ownership. What's on that site already is there a building there are you looking to retrofit

[00:13:45] that site or is the better option to rebuild new build on that site. I guess those are the

[00:13:52] kind of questions you have to answer very early on and looking at some of that data we went over

[00:13:58] the kind of social data the environmental data and things like that you can start to put together

[00:14:02] quite a good picture of that as well with the consented timeline you can see what other people

[00:14:08] are doing around your site as well if others are adding height should you be adding height

[00:14:13] let's have a look at some of the comments some of the reasoning for that that's gone through

[00:14:16] those applications as well but really at the very early stage it's kind of deciding what

[00:14:21] is viable for the site and how you're going to kind of come up with the best possible solution

[00:14:27] for that site so we're starting with data the second thing would be to actually start kind

[00:14:34] of building massing within the site so we can either add extend to the the building that's

[00:14:41] already existing in view city we've got tools to do that the very simple kind of massing tools

[00:14:47] modeling tools that you can really do in a matter of minutes you can take your site and start adding

[00:14:52] these heights or or demolishing them if you need to to to kind of create your massing from

[00:14:58] from the ground up but then at that point what are we trying to assess is visual impact

[00:15:05] really important are there a lot of limitations around the site due to visual impact they

[00:15:11] might be constraints that are dictated by listed buildings or heritage zones or conservation areas

[00:15:18] or key viewpoints so London you've got your London viewing management framework how does that

[00:15:23] affect what's going on there it might come down to overshadowing so if you're putting up a big

[00:15:30] massing what's the effect going to be on not only the other buildings around but also the open

[00:15:35] space around and yeah other elements like that so there's lots that you can start to factor in at

[00:15:44] this stage when when understanding the massing yeah where you're going with that but once you've

[00:15:48] got that massing how do we analyze that then so what what is viable what isn't viable we can look

[00:15:56] at the visual impact we can look at that from the ground from any point within the city

[00:16:01] considering we've modeled a large large area and that's really of course architects have been

[00:16:06] working in 3d for quite a long time now it's not a new thing working in 3d but often in the past

[00:16:13] that has been quite limited to the building they're working on yeah and perhaps a small

[00:16:18] amount of context around the site depending on how much time you've got to model it

[00:16:23] how accurately you're going to model that and the level of detail that you want to go into

[00:16:30] with that that can vary in its I guess usefulness when actually assessing the impact of that building

[00:16:41] because that impact isn't necessarily going to be within 100 meters or 200 meters it's actually

[00:16:45] going to be if you're looking at a tall building yeah could be extremely far yeah definitely yeah

[00:16:51] so it could be over over kilometers but how how can you test that in a quick way and that's

[00:16:57] how having kind of shared resource of 3d data modeling over a large area can really help that

[00:17:03] process and really what we're starting to see is that constraints or limitations and things

[00:17:11] that might have previously been noticed further on down the line in the project they're actually

[00:17:16] getting picked up a lot sooner yeah so understanding the viability of the project

[00:17:22] and de-risking that project can be done at a much earlier stage which hopefully leaves more time

[00:17:29] as well to understand the sustainability and the potential for creating better better buildings

[00:17:37] better places yeah if you can get beyond that initial kind of workflow really quickly as well

[00:17:45] so that's looking at visual impact of course you could take it a step further

[00:17:50] and I think I was I was thinking about this earlier as to kind of although that's quite a

[00:17:58] macro way of looking at sustainability what are the the kind of hidden benefits of using some of

[00:18:05] these digital processes to review that one of them might be that the design team has to do

[00:18:11] less traveling to have these conversations because they could just have a conversation they

[00:18:15] can start reviewing the 3d environment from their machines or not in every case of course you still

[00:18:21] need to do site visits you still need to get out there and understand the site but how how

[00:18:26] frequent does that need to be or yeah if there are other elements that could be picked up

[00:18:31] in that way then maybe that that's a sign of kind of more sustainable way of working as well

[00:18:36] of course that impact is so small compared to actually putting a building on the ground and

[00:18:42] yeah the carbon involved in that process but it's still something so

[00:18:49] yeah so I mean that's looking at vision impact and then of course that's great sharing that between

[00:18:56] the the public and private sector in a kind of trusted way using view city now I mentioned

[00:19:03] that the public and private sector are using it in the UK 60 local authorities are using

[00:19:09] view city to actually understand applications that are coming forward through the design process

[00:19:17] and hopefully kind of de-risking them from the earliest stage as well but yeah it says

[00:19:23] it's kind of just developing that trusted method of conversation through that process

[00:19:30] because you're a you're like a third party aren't you between you know the the local

[00:19:34] authority doesn't have to trust that the let's say the architect is making an accurate model

[00:19:39] because they have this you know independent model yeah everyone is using together so

[00:19:43] that's it yeah I guess what we hope to think are gone on the days of masking and and presenting a few

[00:19:51] images of what you want to show at varying levels of accuracy because you kind of want to hide

[00:19:59] something yeah what we really want to see is a more proactive conversation at the earlier stage

[00:20:04] where you're very open about the impact of some of the buildings but can work together in a trusted

[00:20:12] way using the same data to come to a good conclusion I don't know the estate as well and get the

[00:20:16] most out of the site yeah and to share as well like this has like quite important implications for

[00:20:23] protected heritage assets and and sort of you know I think there's a lot of identity

[00:20:27] attached to skylines of our cities and assemblages of historic buildings and conservation areas and

[00:20:33] things like that and where I've used the tool before as well is in the context of world heritage

[00:20:38] sites which there's I think three in London and several around around the country in different

[00:20:43] cities and they're you know international protection the highest level of protection you can get for

[00:20:48] for historic places and you know we all have a role to play in like preserving those

[00:20:53] you know making sure they're maintained for the future and that new development doesn't

[00:20:57] you know have a damaging effect on them in terms of their skyline or we're just

[00:21:01] detracting from their sort of special qualities yeah and so you know from a very strategic

[00:21:07] point of view you can look at you know something like that which is very sensitive

[00:21:11] and very precious and you can start to see how new development interacts with that

[00:21:15] and start to come to you know conclusions about is this going to be too much development

[00:21:20] in this area is it going to be too high to both here or whatever tested from these really

[00:21:24] specific viewpoints which you know is something that would just be an incredible amount of work

[00:21:30] without having to do that yeah yeah definitely looking at the sometimes I end up spending

[00:21:38] too long looking at some of these kind of zones where you get clusters of buildings coming up

[00:21:43] and just looking at it visually without any understanding you can see where clusters

[00:21:48] are appearing and how they're forming and of course there are guidelines and frameworks and

[00:21:55] looking at the cities an example you can see how certain buildings have been kind of carved away

[00:21:59] whether it's sight lines or use the symbols going through them but even without any of that knowledge

[00:22:05] being able to see it and understand it in a visual way is really really compelling and you then

[00:22:13] understand that the thought process is going through some of those as well but yeah it's it's

[00:22:20] really just the sheer scale of the modeling that we're putting together allows you to do that

[00:22:27] in a lot of those cases yeah and I think there's a longevity aspect to it as well of like buildings

[00:22:32] that are basically that stick out like sore thumbs don't tend to last very long they'll

[00:22:37] be the ones that'll get torn down in 30 40 years and replaced but it's the ones that are

[00:22:43] well designed beautiful but also well located fit in with their surroundings and become a part of that

[00:22:49] like places identity that they're the ones that end up you know becoming the listed buildings of

[00:22:53] the future basically is this a good time to talk about sight solve yeah okay so we yeah we we have

[00:23:02] a generative design tool called sight solve kind of moving slightly away from view city although

[00:23:10] part of the view city family and definitely something that we want to kind of bring into

[00:23:15] the the kind of the context that we have there what site solve allows you to do is take

[00:23:23] an area define an area and you can use view city at an early stage to define that area

[00:23:29] and understand some of the limit set limitations constraints using the the tools that we have

[00:23:33] in there but you can export that to site solve this all as I'm talking about this

[00:23:38] it all makes a lot more sense when you can actually see it links will be in the description

[00:23:45] but it allows you to generate options on a site to different constraints or or development targets

[00:23:53] and other things like that so if you type in the number of the the mix of one bed two bed

[00:23:58] three bed apartments that you would like where your potential routes or roads might be through

[00:24:03] your site even the height limits at potential points around your site you can click generate

[00:24:10] and it will come up with a number of options for you those options generate really really fast

[00:24:17] but then they can be reviewed again back in the context of view city so you can

[00:24:22] understand what development that you're putting together might what impact it might have

[00:24:27] on the wider context but also you can you can test things like what the viewpoint might be

[00:24:32] from a particular apartment that you're you're putting together that's great yeah you can you

[00:24:39] can have a look at the I mean we're just scraping the surface with this just scratching the surface

[00:24:45] on kind of carbon tools and analysis and it's it's really a very much a first step it's

[00:24:53] very difficult to I'm sure anyone who has had this job in the past would kind of understand

[00:24:58] it's very difficult to forecast the the carbon on a site where you don't know what's going on

[00:25:05] underground was what's going on around what's currently on that site as well in terms of the

[00:25:09] carbon but we have a tool that will in a way generate a calculation to understand what these

[00:25:17] different developments are coming up with what their impact might be above surface level yeah

[00:25:23] but yeah so we're using or we're seeing sites have been used a lot to understand the the viability

[00:25:32] or the capacity of sites that are coming up so as a landowner like I mentioned or an asset manager

[00:25:37] you can start to outline these sites and very quickly understand if there's potential there for

[00:25:44] for development if there's potential and what what sort of development as well

[00:25:49] if you're looking at apartments against office space what one of the different kind of outcomes that

[00:25:55] you could achieve from those as well but yeah it's quite as exciting for us it's a kind of first

[00:26:02] step into generative design it's proving really popular great but yeah there's loads that we can

[00:26:10] kind of continue to build in there definitely around the sustainability as well yeah kind of

[00:26:17] moving on from our initial kind of attempts at carbon calculations and looking at other

[00:26:24] elements as well one other thing that we do have in there which which kind of ties in quite nicely is

[00:26:30] understanding kind of solar analysis so within the blocks that would be generated within site

[00:26:35] solve we can see if they kind of fall within the guideline kind of sunlight hours across the

[00:26:42] year as well so like external spaces or internal spaces all external spaces yeah but internal to

[00:26:49] that site boundary that you'd be you'd be creating there amazing yeah well that's like a really key

[00:26:56] performance sort of indicator isn't it for for a key performance indicator for a lot of

[00:27:02] developments now particularly you know there's a lot of good policies and things like the local plan

[00:27:06] stuff which are pushing for you know the right amount of daylight hours per day within open spaces

[00:27:13] and play areas and habitable rooms that kind of thing which is quite technical exercise to do

[00:27:16] so if you can you know get all that information up front with a couple of different options it just

[00:27:20] gives you that I suppose that certainty that you're moving the design in the right direction

[00:27:25] yeah yeah definitely um yeah all of all of that kind of data is starting to be produced

[00:27:31] quite quickly and I think that's the power of AI as well we're very early in the journey of

[00:27:37] understanding artificial intelligence and how we can start to kind of plug into potentially

[00:27:42] other tools as well to to use that information in a really clever way to to get the most out

[00:27:49] of sites yeah you might have seen that I think it was the architects journal did a survey of

[00:27:54] AJ100 architecture practices and something I think over 40 percent of them responded to say

[00:28:00] they are using AI tools in some form yeah and so it's and as they said they're only the ones that

[00:28:05] admitted to using it yeah the real number might be even higher so it is really happening it is

[00:28:10] really spreading quickly uh and that might be a little bit of chat GPT or might be you know a

[00:28:16] little bit of help here and there but I know because I've spoken to architects who are using

[00:28:20] generative design tools and they just say they just say it doesn't take the creativity out of

[00:28:25] architecture but what it does is it just lets us throw out the bad ideas really quickly yes yeah

[00:28:31] and then we use our skills as an architect to to then refine the better schemes and make them our

[00:28:37] own basically that's it is de-risking isn't it is having a look at all the options up front or

[00:28:42] at a very early stage to then play you or take sorry take on those more suitable options

[00:28:51] further um the same way that sites solve it could it will generate options for you but

[00:28:59] it's not saying these are your options you can then manipulate them you can draw in there if

[00:29:03] you've got better ideas for the site use those as the initial outline and we'll generate around it

[00:29:08] but um it's very much a kind of collaboration between the architect or the consultant or whoever's

[00:29:15] running that process the the expert in that field um and then the the generative design element as well

[00:29:23] but yeah no you're right people talk about AI and that could be anything from typing in a search

[00:29:30] in chat GPT all the way through to fully kind of coherent AI of models of kind of large developments

[00:29:41] with all the internal flaws and everything produced there's quite a big difference between

[00:29:45] the two but I think yeah I imagine the number is probably higher than 40 probably is by now yeah

[00:29:52] I think like I think there's a lot of fear around AI and I share that thing of being like oh we don't

[00:29:57] really know what it's gonna what's gonna happen with it in the future but I think for us as

[00:30:02] built environment professionals like there's so much I do feel like everyone sort of over delivers

[00:30:08] projects because we do just do so much work for what is often not very sort of high paying work

[00:30:15] and I think if we can start to use tools like this to free up time for more for the parts of

[00:30:20] the job that we really love which is the creative creative aspect of it or engaging with communities

[00:30:26] or whatever then that can only be a good thing so yeah yeah I think that kind of um

[00:30:31] goes all the same could be said with uh kind of I guess the same could be said with with

[00:30:40] View City as well um you've used the platform yeah no you wouldn't expect to use some of the images

[00:30:48] perhaps that you create a View City in your marketing materials or as a really high level CGI

[00:30:54] kind of generated image that you would use it in marketing or at the final stages but

[00:31:00] a lot of it it doesn't really matter at that point because we're not selling those images

[00:31:04] yeah we're selling the conversation that you can have with the the the data that we've got in

[00:31:10] the platform so it's again if you can't see it it's quite hard to understand but um

[00:31:16] they're not kind of photo realistic renders of of skylines or or of your buildings within

[00:31:24] the city what they do offer is a very accurate way of measuring the massing and the impact that

[00:31:31] that's going to have on other buildings um which is really important in that early part of the

[00:31:35] conversation rather than selling that to the the final residents of that exactly they just wouldn't

[00:31:44] understand that yeah there are other tools for that yeah exactly you've got an interesting case

[00:31:50] study around using View City for finding opportunities for solar energy that's it tell me a bit about

[00:31:56] that yeah so um we've been used more recently um kind of by one of our partner companies as well

[00:32:05] we're part of this this um this process GIA um but yeah one of the cities that we work with

[00:32:12] we're really keen on understanding how they could potentially increase the efficiency or

[00:32:19] efficiencies across their kind of assets across the city now because we have the whole of the

[00:32:26] city modelled we are able then to determine all of the flat roofs across the city and also

[00:32:33] determine what the potential sunlight on on those flat roofs is over the course of the year

[00:32:40] so we can get the potential of the sunlight or the solar panels that would potentially be on

[00:32:46] these rooftops as well yeah so we can work that out at a really wide scale um of course it's good

[00:32:52] looking at the potential now but also with approved schemes coming forward and and other

[00:32:58] developments happening then often some of those locations they might actually start

[00:33:02] getting cast into a bit of darkness so yeah so if you've got a tower going up next to what

[00:33:06] was previously a good site it's no longer really that good for that kind of part of the year so um

[00:33:13] yeah but it's really kind of having access to all of this data all of those flat

[00:33:19] roofs across a large area can allow people to prioritise where the quick winds are perhaps

[00:33:27] the total potential especially when you're looking at increasing the energy efficiency

[00:33:33] of buildings or your kind of portfolio of buildings um yeah for for commercial benefit almost at some

[00:33:40] points as well um then yeah you can you can find out really quickly and then of course visualise it

[00:33:48] really well right um for for those for the client who's interested in looking at too

[00:33:56] I love that as a case study because that's just obviously so replicable replicable

[00:34:01] for other cities you know around the UK and around the world like it's it's a great use of of technology

[00:34:07] and I think um I can see you know obviously local authorities using it or maybe more academic

[00:34:14] studies using it to sort of make the case for how much of a city's energy could be provided you

[00:34:19] know through rooftop rooftop solar in like quite a quick way but also as you mentioned you know

[00:34:25] landowners people who own lots of properties and certainly in the UK we have these you

[00:34:29] know the the biggest states that own huge amounts of property across our cities and for them to be

[00:34:34] able to look in and say right from a portfolio point of view you know we can fairly easily

[00:34:41] look and see what's the capacity for solar across our portfolio and then see like what will the

[00:34:46] savings be for them what's the decarbonisation benefits for them across their portfolio

[00:34:50] like that is quite impactful across the city for sure that says taking the the impact

[00:34:55] away from building by building which can look quite daunting if you're looking at the results

[00:35:00] from each building to the wide-scale impact definitely um and it's not just looking at

[00:35:08] solar potential in some of these cases it might be looking at where of course we need more housing

[00:35:15] we need more density in some locations but where existing structures perhaps could be looked at

[00:35:21] given their flat roofs and and ability to kind of start building on top of those buildings quite

[00:35:29] quickly we can tell you again look at those areas quite quickly as well but yeah there's the I'm

[00:35:36] sure there's loads of different use cases that we haven't discovered yet coming from

[00:35:42] from this kind of data that's available now now we have the opportunity to do it yeah and

[00:35:48] that only really comes from having users kind of subscribing to it and and experimenting with

[00:35:54] it yeah exactly well that's I mean that's always a good sign I think if you invent something and

[00:35:59] then it gets used for purposes that you never even thought yeah it would be used yeah um definitely

[00:36:07] um what do you want to talk a little bit about retrofit yeah we're also using or being used a

[00:36:13] lot more on retrofit projects or at least that's what our customers are saying um I'm speaking to

[00:36:22] architects all the time and and more and more frequently the projects are retrofit projects

[00:36:27] so of course we're trying to shoehorn our way into being useful in that way as well but definitely

[00:36:35] for a client to understand what the potential foresight is potentially a site that might have

[00:36:41] just been kind of written off in the past as an opportunity given that it's already an asset that is

[00:36:51] is I guess worthwhile at that point how can we make it how can we change its use to something

[00:36:58] that's actually more required more more has a better potential for the user in the long run

[00:37:05] um so yeah I mean we've been using Vue City to understand potential um kind of additional

[00:37:13] stories on buildings oh yeah um we've had a lot of more recently kind of penthouse developers

[00:37:19] using the platform adding two or three stories onto buildings and understanding what the potential

[00:37:25] is there um I mean that's that's such a common one for when you're getting because the expense

[00:37:32] of of retrofitting say a historic building or an existing building yeah typically you know a

[00:37:36] developer to make that stack up will want to add a little bit more density onto it maybe one or two

[00:37:40] more stories that's it so that yeah I can see that being an obvious one for testing in Vue City

[00:37:44] just seeing like what's this doing to our daylight or overshadowing neighboring buildings or views and

[00:37:50] that kind of thing that's it yeah and we're seeing that more and more definitely with heritage

[00:37:53] sites or or historic buildings um it it just adds that extra level of interest and viability

[00:38:01] to the project as well um but yeah it's it's really kind of seeing what the potentials are

[00:38:08] from those areas they're kind of I guess re-exposing areas that have been hidden away or lost in the

[00:38:14] past if you're looking at a central London rooftop or roof terrace there's a lot to be gained

[00:38:20] from that yeah even maybe green space or or greening on on on those spaces as well but

[00:38:27] there's a lot to be gained from maybe hidden viewpoints or parts of the buildings that have

[00:38:32] never been kind of assessed or accessed um or potentially viewpoints from those buildings

[00:38:38] have been covered up because of surrounding uh building and heights maybe if they're kind of

[00:38:45] putting a bit of height on top of that then they're re-exposing their their building again to

[00:38:51] some of those viewpoints um yeah across the city yeah and I think it's like a lot of cities

[00:38:57] and I think particularly London is promoting intensification you know like there's there's

[00:39:03] more and more guidance and more and more policies coming out saying like you know whatever way we

[00:39:08] can let's try and get more housing in uh more uses in to our existing fabric in a way that is

[00:39:14] sort of sensitive and works with what's there and like that's a great it's like a double

[00:39:18] sustainability gain because you're not losing the existing buildings and the carbon is there

[00:39:22] but you're also maybe bringing in more intensity and more density to areas that um maybe don't have

[00:39:29] that you know that density of people to support like local services or or public transport and

[00:39:34] that kind of thing and you're you're maybe just helping to get in you know those extra couple

[00:39:37] of homes here and there yeah cumulatively does help to sort of bring that bit more density

[00:39:42] which we know is needed yeah it does make a difference and especially if you're

[00:39:46] an asset manager or a landowner with a lot of these properties yeah again kind of going back

[00:39:51] almost to that that point that we were discussing on the solar um using data over a large area how

[00:39:59] can you find all of these small winds so these quick winds might not necessarily be too quick if

[00:40:03] you're working in a very kind of heavily protected area and that process takes a bit

[00:40:08] of time through planning and of course you um kind of the the rest of it um but yeah

[00:40:14] some of these might be quite quick winds that that you couldn't push forward

[00:40:18] in in in that whole process yeah thank you so much for the conversation it's been a good one

[00:40:25] thanks a lot