#83: Decolonise Architecture, with Mohit Buch and Sue Yen Chong

[00:00:00] It's a great idea to be able to do this. There is a reason why this is a great idea because they're up breaking their worldview, it's different. It's not wrong, it's just different. Welcome to the Green Urbanist podcast for Urbanist, Fighting Climate Change. I'm Ross.

[00:00:29] Hello everyone, welcome back to the Green Urbanist podcast. If you're new here, this podcast is all about how cities and built environment professionals can respond to the climate of biodiversity crises. My name is Ross OCeallaigh.

[00:00:50] I'm delighted today to be joined by Mohit and Sue Yen of Decolonise Architecture. My name is Mohit Buch, I'm currently in a directorate decolonise architecture and I'm also a part two Hayson Ward Medal Architects in Cambridge. Hi, I'm Sue Yen. I'm new here to decolonise architecture,

[00:01:13] but like Mohit, I also did my part one at Bath and then I went on to do my Masters in Edinburgh. And right now I'm a designer at Yen Katana Architects in London. Decolonise architecture is a solution-based group driven to tackle institutional racism

[00:01:30] and bias within architectural education and practice. In this episode we discuss how architectural education practice can be colonial in its approach and the problems with this. We talk about expanding the architectural education practice to embrace other cultures and world views

[00:01:46] and about how the architecture profession can be made more accessible to all. Now although we're predominantly talking about architecture, actually a lot of what we discuss is relevant to other built environment, professions and I bring that perspective as a planner and urban designer as well to the conversation.

[00:02:03] So do keep listening even if you're not an architect, think you'll find it very top-froking and relevant to you as well, whether you're a planner or landscape architect or an engineer or whatever. Particularly if you're working internationally I think you'll find this quiet, top-froking episode.

[00:02:20] So thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoy it and you get something out of it. And do go and follow Decolonise architecture at their website on the Instagram, the links are in the episode description. Thanks so much and enjoy the chat.

[00:02:37] We wanted to talk about your project, Decolonise architecture. So maybe just start from the beginning, what is it? Why did it start? So Decolonise architecture started off in the summer of 2020. It was when we were finishing our undergrad and it was during COVID

[00:03:00] and also it was coincided with the murder of George Floyd. And so what had happened was that a number of students at the University of Bath, were looking to facilitate institutional curriculum change within the university. And what started off as a 200-signatory strong open letter,

[00:03:25] that was sent to the department. And then over the course of the summer, it turned into this slightly informal group of about four to five of us. The group was founded by Tanya Chigande, who's and then since then what we have been doing is working to provide a

[00:03:44] solutions-based approach to institutional racism and bias within architecture. I think one of the things that kind of underpins how DA works is that we decided to opt for an approach of co-opting as opposed to co-ersing. So what we felt was right was essentially working with the stakeholders and

[00:04:14] the individuals that are in power at the moment and essentially bringing everyone to the table so that voices can be heard from a variety of different points of view. And whilst maintaining the ideology that underpins the founding of DA at itself,

[00:04:36] yeah, so that is kind of where DA has been and over the last three years now we have been working with a lot of support from the University of Bath, but then we've been working with other

[00:04:50] universities such as Bath Spa, we've worked with University of Edinburgh and some and the Bauhaus University in Germany and you know, led student and faculty led kind of of round tables, which we called anti-racist forums, which were essentially sit down events

[00:05:12] primarily online with all of these different stakeholders where students and faculty could add their opinions on whether the department could improve what they think they're doing well and creating an environment where all of the individuals are aware of what needs to be

[00:05:32] done next in order to create an inclusive environment for everybody. And yeah, so in these kind of endeavors we've had the help from numerous different numerous individuals on the SUE and being one of them, she's recently joined DA

[00:05:49] and I think the positive to her to kind of talk about where we want to take DA in the future. Yeah, so so far, yeah, so DA so far has kind of as Mohex Spain been the solution

[00:06:01] based approach because we realize that lots of people were talking about decolonizing architecture, but we also acknowledge that policies and education is usually quite slow to catching up to what's being set on the ground. And so we wanted to repeat the people

[00:06:19] that kind of catalyze these changes that happen on an institutional level, not just talk about it because we think these two different forms of activism kind of being vocal about it and actually working with the stakeholders which sometimes are very difficult

[00:06:39] but we believe that those two forms of activism need to kind of coexist. You need one to feed into another and we wanted to be on the site that kind of was doing

[00:06:50] the bits that were a little bit more long-term based in a way. So a lot of the things that we've done so far are kind of short-term actions where we've talked to universities and helped them to reform their

[00:07:05] curriculums but what we realized upon reflection was that there wasn't a lot of follow-up in these situations and we wanted to kind of take accountability of these long-term impacts that of the work that we've been doing and actually assess how students are responding

[00:07:24] to these curriculum changes and also how we can further bring forth changes within the institutions that have engaged for us throughout this process. And so kind of that's one way in which we want to kind of further

[00:07:37] the work we do with the educational institutions that we work for. But on top of that, we are starting to look into writing our own research. So our other team members who are all across the globe

[00:07:52] were interested in very different forms of decolonization and we realized that a lot of up here has written a lot of things to say really important pieces and we wanted to collect these voices. Sometimes they student projects, sometimes they're essays, sometimes they're kind of design iterations

[00:08:13] but we wanted to kind of create this archive of the student body of research things that we have found because if we've read and almost curate an alternative form of architectural knowledge

[00:08:32] in a way that looks at this often unheard or unseen side that exists in our education today. Yeah. Yeah, I think if I could just add on to that what's here and put really well, the core understanding at the heart of what DAD is an encouragement that decolonizing

[00:09:01] requires, is a multifaceted challenge and requires a multifaceted approach. Sometimes there can be misconceptions that decolonizing is either only or primarily focused on race or like which race is a very big part of I guess one of the challenges that present day architecture

[00:09:33] architectural education faces. However, the core of it is that it is challenging the existing power structures, analyzing them and seeing what can be done in order to create a more equitable environment for architectural students, faculty and the wider kind of activities of the profession itself.

[00:09:57] Great, great. Thank you for that overview. I think that's really helpful starting point. I think maybe to help people understand, I suppose, where this has come from, why it's important,

[00:10:07] I'll ask a really basic question which is at the moment. What is it about architecture that is colonial or colonized in a sense? Of course.

[00:10:19] I think this goes back to almost where we were, to our founding, when we started looking at different statistics and the different kind of what we call the leaky pipeline

[00:10:34] were looking at the number of students that were entering part one at the start of their careers and how many students are graduating at the end of part three.

[00:10:45] And so who is, and we had seen there was statistics that showed that at the start it is reasonably representative of the general population, however,

[00:10:56] as the stages progress, there is a, almost the minority students almost that there's a significant crop off in the percentage that they make up within students that graduate at the end of part three.

[00:11:15] And so that was the forming one part of our approach where, you know, working with universities to see how can architecture be made accessible and remain accessible to students that come from a variety of backgrounds.

[00:11:30] And so that's all of that also looking at how architecture is taught within schools today.

[00:11:36] We in a world today that is increasingly interconnected, a lot of students are graduating to work in practices that, you know, will have offices around the world they might be doing international projects and also with the benefit of international students coming to the UK to develop and to study.

[00:12:00] We think that there needs to be, there certainly needs to be a focus on what are the, what are global challenges and simply a Eurocentric or a Eurocentric plus North American approach which is so common in architecture today is no longer suitable.

[00:12:19] And going back to what we've mentioned about co-opting, not co-ursing. It's not about, you know, saying that, okay, no, you cannot talk about co-busier anymore, you cannot talk about like, you know, these canonical figures. It's about making sure that as well as them, we're also looking at.

[00:12:40] We're also giving you know, the due importance to individuals and movements that have taken place around the world because it. Nothing developed in isolation. Yeah, definitely.

[00:12:56] Yeah, I completely agree that it's not just about replacing one canon with another, but rather it's an expansion of one's knowledge and kind of adding on to my, it's point about this.

[00:13:08] In a way, leaky pipeline, kind of before this leaky pipeline even starts there is this whole other barrier to entry into architectural education, especially when you know in the UK.

[00:13:19] You know, it's a very, very long course. It's five, six years of your life in education and so to be able to do to be spending that much time and money in education requires a certain kind of privilege that comes with it.

[00:13:35] And it's also kind of a profession that you don't, you kind of don't grow up aspiring to if people around you, if you don't see people who look like you in the practice.

[00:13:48] You know, the people who you look up great architects and you don't see people who look like you and it's very, very discouraging. You don't think that you can be one of them, which is why representation is so, so important in this field, especially if we're starting to work.

[00:14:03] In different countries and also the spaces we're designing for are people, they're for different forms of people not just people who look and think like us. And so kind of that's another way in which the profession has so far been in a way quite.

[00:14:23] Unfriendly to some kind of people. Yeah.

[00:14:28] That's, that's great. I mean it's making me sort of reflect on my experience in university studying planning an urban design and I think I definitely learned a lot more about the you know urban planning of ancient Greece and Rome than I did about Africa or Asia, but you know what could you know contemporary Africa or Asia.

[00:14:48] What is more relevant actually to people for in practice today and I had that experience of one of my early jobs was working in a global multi-disciplinary practice.

[00:14:58] And I was working on projects in Nigeria and I had you know was literally starting from zero in terms of my knowledge of for an accurate architecture and an urban design in an African context.

[00:15:11] So yeah, I mean the other thing that I'm reflecting on as well is that I have a couple of friends who are tutors in university courses, master degrees in the likes of university college London.

[00:15:23] And they tell me that you know a lot of their, you know in some cases the vast majority of their students are foreign students who are coming in from places like China, Korea, who are coming to London for that sort of you know what's seen as quite a global experience.

[00:15:39] I mean, you know, you know, seeing as quite a globally. Ileesh or or you know significant sort of education really good university.

[00:15:48] And I'm not sure what situation is in UCL but it's likely they're getting obviously a very Western, very British European perspective on that and then they may be going back to their home country without having that chance to really learn more about global architecture.

[00:16:04] Yeah and I feel like you had that experience in some ways during your losses project didn't you. Yeah, I think. One of the during during our master's projects we were.

[00:16:16] Two of the two of our groups who we were based in India the way our course worked essentially you spend a year, your your six year essentially. Deep diving into one city around the world and we happened to be in India in the city of Odaipur.

[00:16:35] And what a lot when what a lot of the kind of students from those groups felt that. There could be there could certainly be a greater or deeper understanding of how challenges vary on the other side on on different sides of the world.

[00:16:57] And you know how a certain kind of design aspect that or approached that works over here may not always work may not always work in say India or Japan or you know whatever country.

[00:17:14] And it is about I think acknowledging that you know the cultures and you know the way people move the people the way people inhabit their spaces will very greatly and almost starting from that point onward and then building up around them being open to.

[00:17:35] The fact that you might arrive and answer that you might not have previously thought. And yeah, yeah.

[00:17:46] I think there's kind of this aspect in architecture that you're being taught in schools is that you're the principal designer as the architect like you're the in a way the master planner and that's something that really.

[00:18:03] Isn't the case in a lot of other cultures where building is a lot more collaborative it's a lot kind of knowledge is not top down but bottom up and we find that in a lot of like indigenous culture is where also they don't view.

[00:18:20] The land is passive because in architecture school, you know you're given a site and you're like okay this is your site and go and build on it. Without even asking questions of like who lives here.

[00:18:32] You know and I think there are all these questions about dismantling the way in which review architecture kind of as this principal designer abandoning kind of cool and where power and control lies within the design process.

[00:18:48] These are things that kind of come from a very like colonial mindset of going into a place and kind of wanting to change it and reform it according to your personal needs. And so looking into the ways in which other cultures.

[00:19:07] Deal with issues of land and ways that they built differently not just in terms of the construction process but so in terms of materials. That architecture doesn't have to be this extractive relationship with the land.

[00:19:23] These are all things that we can start learning from other cultures if we start broadening and decolonizing our education. That's really fascinating. I think that that sort of mindset or paradigm aspect of it is really important because it's almost like.

[00:19:42] You it's something we often inhabit but I would ever consciously thinking about is. And so that idea that if your entire education system is sort of within an enclosed sort of worldview you don't even know you're in it, you just think that architecture or that's how you do.

[00:19:59] And like language is so so important in this conversation for instance like the word master plan. But what master in course.

[00:20:08] Like that already assumes a mastery of sorts in the designer and then you start re-out questions like who is asleep to this design and all these things that's need to kind of be questioned.

[00:20:22] Oh my god, I'm going to second guess myself every time I say the word master plan for now. Can we thank you very powerful tool? Yeah absolutely exactly.

[00:20:35] I think sometimes I think people within Europe can think that colonization or colonialism or something that happened in the past hundreds of years ago when empires were spreading out around the world.

[00:20:53] I think something that is not as talked about as often in the mainstream is how you know colonialism is really still alive and well in the world unfortunately. I don't know if you have their own flags doesn't mean they're free. It's okay.

[00:21:11] Well great boy, I'd love for you to talk a little bit around that and how that fits in with the architecture and the urbanism side of it.

[00:21:19] Sure, I think one of the ways that we believe that you know that that it's almost now obviously it won't take place all the time. I think that's a very good thing.

[00:21:35] As it would have as like an occupying power even though that is a very relevant topic today more than ever. Within architecture, I think we all have to look at the kind of the export of ideas and how how is an idea viewed around the world.

[00:21:50] A very, a very clear one is the skyscraper itself where you now, you know there is a common kind of.

[00:22:02] Approach in a lot of developing cities where the glass skyscraper is there the be all in and all and that is the correct answer for any any environment which.

[00:22:14] By definition that just cannot that cannot be true because where you will have you know a desert climate a tropical climate and then you'll have a temporary climate.

[00:22:23] The architecture of those should not you know they should be climate to career sponsors and be responsible and culturally responsive at the same time and hence it's wrong to. Almost the idolize one design strategy and copy and paste that across the world which is becoming increasingly more common.

[00:22:46] This does not necessarily mean that you know that you have to go completely on the other side of the spectrum and promote a sort of.

[00:22:55] I believe I believe regionalism is the term where, you know there can be no kind of overlap of or learning from other cultures however. The fact that so many skylines today.

[00:23:09] Resorting to this copy and paste approach adding a prime example is Jakarta where they are it is it is a it is a synkey it is sorry it is a city that is sinking and where there was you know a large amount of low density housing.

[00:23:27] It's now been transformed into medium and high density developments and a lot of these are drawing vast quantities of water every day from deep well as drilled.

[00:23:36] 100 to 200 meters into the ground and this has to and as a result the city it's the rates of its sinking has increased and.

[00:23:47] It is praising this rapid urbanization is kind of producing a stress on its limited kind of groundwater resources and leaving these buildings and least rock to vulnerable to collapse. And you might also see parallel examples within the Middle East where you will have. Glass towers with incredibly efficient.

[00:24:11] You know mechanical systems however it still begs the question as to what justified the glass tower with oftentimes very little shading on the outside. In the middle of you know a very. So the high so the kind of.

[00:24:32] Expo very exposed environment and I think that is one of the ways in which you manifest itself in today's design language where certain design exports are seen as. The key and then.

[00:24:46] And then you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, these countries have been, you know, And I think especially in the East, people think that these countries have been the British moved out such a long time ago.

[00:25:20] But I think there's an aspect that people definitely in Malaysia at least like or even in Southeast Asia, people are still looking to work the West for examples. And so there's this kind of coffee and taste after you as Mojave was explaining.

[00:25:37] And if all the eyes are pointed to what's the West, then everyone's trying to build like the West, then what gets the most something that isn't suitable for a climate number one. Building on that, it's also important to acknowledge that it is not one, you know, one

[00:25:54] party's responsibility to ensure that the world is building responsibly. And, and however I think the roots of this can still be traced back to the fact that in architecture schools around the world, the canon that's taught is still very Eurocentric.

[00:26:13] And it is still primarily focused on the the same presence that we focus on. And this is not, you know, just coming from anecdotal experience. We've on social media, we've often engaged with and interacted with our followers from around the world.

[00:26:33] And we've asked them for contributions and we've collaborated with them in the past and time and time again. This is this is the same kind of a feedback we get that they will, you know, I think there

[00:26:45] was someone in Brazil who was saying the canon that they're taught is still very much Western Europe and North America. And I think that is where these kind of exports or remnants of colonialism can still be traced back to when the modern wooden today's world.

[00:27:02] Yeah, and yet like if you look at it from another lens, kind of what of kind of Neil imperialism that still exists today, you look at the materials which we build with and where these materials are being sourced from.

[00:27:17] There are these kind of parallelity control between extractor from a place that is so distinct from you that, you know, whatever happens there, you kind of almost it's okay to do that because you don't see the kind of realities of what's happening and sometimes what happens

[00:27:37] is that these materials are being extracted from distant lands are they take some time for something to happen for natural disasters to happen for instance. So, for example, in Singapore they are doing a lot of land reclamation and that process

[00:27:57] of land reclamation requires a lot of sand that sand has been sourced from the rivers in Cambodia and in Thailand and Myanmar and slowly by tripping away at the the sand from these rivers

[00:28:13] to build to kind of expand the colony of another country as a result, the countries that wear these materials are extracted from will suffer from that kind of violent extraction of materials but it is something that isn't even considered to be their responsibilities

[00:28:33] or whoever is taking those materials and resources because well it's not there, it's not there it's just that it's not there. There's no use of getting resources in that process, right? And so ways in which can this aspect of taking from another, it's fighting power over

[00:28:48] another one's land and resource and labor still exists today. I think that's a very interesting point that you let's see you in just made about sand mining because I know for a fact, this is quite a serious problem in India where India is one

[00:29:08] of the highest cement consumers as country within the world. And there are these groups called, well, colloquially, can be referred to as sand mafia is where the illegal mining of sand and almost corrupting what Siren was mentioning, the relationship that we have

[00:29:30] it's seen as purely this extractionist attitude where the Earth is simply there to serve us and we do not hold any responsibility to it. These often in the middle of the night, sand mining expeditions

[00:29:52] can result in people being killed essentially over the over the mining of sand and it is this perverse relationship with the Earth that I think that we were getting at where

[00:30:08] the Earth is seen as something that is simply meant to provide for humans, whereas seeing it as a more mutually beneficial relationship. That is fascinating. I've never heard of that before, but I think this topic of extraction may be brings us into talking about sustainability

[00:30:28] a bit more in a bit more focused way, because I think something that is really important to talk about with the green transition or decarbonization is that a lot of our electric technology and renewable energy technology requires minerals like lithium to be mined largely in the global south.

[00:30:51] We will need a huge increase in the amount of mining that is happening for these kind of materials also like copper. The effects of that on local ecosystems, but also the people who work there often really really poor conditions, it's just really incredible. It's really difficult

[00:31:12] to square that with the aspirations for a fair and equitable future that we all want and talk about. You can't begin to decarbonize if you don't also decolonize. I think Leslie logo described these two aspects decolonization and decolonization as two sides of the same coin,

[00:31:34] because as we have pointed out so many times through this commotion that these two issues are so interrelated, the effects of colonialism has resulted in the environmental breakdown of a lot of countries, more predominantly in the global south. Because of this violent extraction of resources

[00:31:59] and so I also do not have the answer but I think that what we need to be moving towards is to understand that there is a different way of building. There's a different way of building

[00:32:19] a relationship with the Earth that doesn't have to be so extractive, that doesn't have to only rely on these particular technologies. There are many ways in which you can do so many things and there are kind of conventional narratives of emerging technologies from the West, but there's

[00:32:42] so many ways that we know exist within the knowledge of indigenous cultures that exist within the knowledge of people who live within climate that have very different sorts of weather conditions. And these are embodied knowledge that just isn't out there yet. I think as Mojit said,

[00:33:05] it's not a one-size-fits-fits-all solution is not like we have to mine all the Lithium and all the coval and all the comforts of the most solar panels we can in the world. And that's the

[00:33:14] all the energy we can have, it's not it right. It's about taking a very measured approach, knowing when to use what and when it's appropriate and understanding that if you do have to extract resources from the Earth being very aware of kind of where it's coming from,

[00:33:33] how you're going to minimize the damage to existing ecosystems and also making sure that who and where you extract from do not get exploited in the process, both in terms of the

[00:33:45] labor and the land. That's so great. It's really well said and I think connected to that and I think one of the sad things is even in Britain and Europe we're losing our traditional methods of building.

[00:33:59] I mean I don't know about you guys if in your architectural education you were ever taught about things like car building and earth building or building with stone, those sort of traditional materials I'm shaking your head. And so I don't think that we were taught

[00:34:15] that conventionally but interestingly enough one of my projects, my master's was exploring these vernacular ways of building within the UK so using fatch and straw and cob and it was this process of wanting to almost build differently and find something else that I realized

[00:34:36] kind of disinterconnectedness between decolonizing and decolonizing our education and how these two kind of go hand in hand you can't have one without the other and I had to almost relearn and

[00:34:48] unlearn a lot of what I had been taught throughout my education as I was going through that process. And so yeah I think that definitely schools, these days are seeming to embrace more sustainable forms of construction and they're looking to like I know that for example in Edinburgh

[00:35:12] one of the kind of new units is looking at earth building so it is starting, the conversations are starting to happen but I think more hidden I just think that there needs to be more than I think building on from building on from students point when looking at

[00:35:34] quote unquote traditional technologies or a bit of building methods it's also about acknowledging that there is not a binary approach to building construction you don't need to go full high tech or for you know completely low tech and a completely passive approach. There have

[00:35:55] it's about acknowledging the fact that you know a construction method from say 300, 400 years ago was also the product of its time and the material discoveries at that time and for example today we live very differently it's the people from from previous years we have different needs

[00:36:13] and it's about seeing how can we what can we take from those technologies and how can we marry them to as was the discoveries and also human needs today without you know having to completely reinvent

[00:36:30] the wheel every single time. There were answers that were provided by previous technologies but then how can we adapt them to today because you know once again replicating what was in the past

[00:36:44] as an answer for today you know by brick by brick or like a detail by detail if yeah. It is also we're not creating a product of its own time because

[00:36:58] mankind has come on and it is yeah so it's about all balancing the needs of today versus what could be learned from the past. Yeah and I think architecture education is also something that is

[00:37:14] so so rich and kind of involved in thinking about the future it just you know it's about a bunch of people coming together and thinking about building a better future, a better

[00:37:28] world and to do that you need the tools you need all the tools you possibly can not just ones that come from one toolbox that we've been teaching from so far. So kind of expanding this

[00:37:42] toolkit in which we have more forms of knowledge, more holistic education number one because you can't begin to almost dismantle the master's house with the master's tools. That's not my code that's by Audrey Lord. I wish I said that but almost kind of this idea of

[00:38:04] yeah it's not a binary it's more of an expansion of one's knowledge and bringing those things together and I think there's so much potential in the education to help us to reimagine what a

[00:38:19] do colonized future looks like we don't know what it looks like yet we're still living in something that is very much colonized just in ways that don't look the same right and so that's why we think it's for the important to focus on this aspect of architecture education

[00:38:36] because it really helps once you imagine a different future. And I think if I could just add one more thing on that when soon it mentioned the topic of unlearning and I think that is a very

[00:38:51] important and almost under discussed topic when it comes to decolonization where you have to be open to the fact that you might be wrong and this is on both sides of the fence as it were like

[00:39:08] you have to be in order to truly take people's views on board you have to be open to the fact that you do not have all the answers and someone else has also has a my advice point of view

[00:39:23] and accepting that ideas and our own amalgamation of different parameters from different stakeholders and as a result being open to disagreement and managing that healthily and not shutting yourself off from people that will disagree with you because I think that can sometimes whilst you will be

[00:39:47] surrounded by people that will always say things that you want to hear and you will get you will always be surrounded by the right answer but then by you know building that wall between

[00:40:02] yourself and people that you may disagree with sometimes severely you I think you lose the the benefits of compromise I'll say I think because by taking opinions on board from a variety of different sources what comes together is it is a positive at the end of the day.

[00:40:24] Yeah I completely agree and you know idea of a day if not about kind of asking it's not about answering the questions in the right way but about listening to what other people have to say about how they think things can be better because I think sometimes

[00:40:44] the way in which we can think of architecture conventionally is really one side it where kind of the architect it seems that's the know all the person who knows everything about the

[00:40:59] design and this is master designer but actually we start to break that down and we start to bring other people into the conversation people that don't usually have a voice in the architecture on design process bringing these different stakeholders start to almost shift this power dynamic

[00:41:18] that exists in the following industry today and that also allows one to build a more holistic view of what's in front of the table who is involved who are stakeholders and you can see that that's actually a way in which we can start to hold these difficult conversations

[00:41:40] and as through these difficult conversations kind of sticking with those sticking with the and almost wrestling them and they don't have to be resolved but having these conversations is almost like the first step that needs to be taken. This has been just a really insightful talk

[00:41:57] and I just want to give you a chance in cases anything before we wrap up was there anything else you wanted to talk about or touch on that we might have missed? I think I think what the last

[00:42:10] conversation the last point we just made were probably in my opinion they've been they've been almost the driving ethos of DA over the last three years were this acknowledging that there will be people that disagree with you and there is a reason why

[00:42:26] they disagree with you because they're up breaking their worldview is different it's not wrong it's just different and just being open to the fact that what you know may not always get you

[00:42:40] to get the right answer and being able to just put your hands up and say okay someone else might notice better than me or someone else maybe more competent in this and then working with them

[00:42:54] and it will also go the other way around and acknowledging that there will be a variety of answers that are possible and that being and they will never be a one size fits all solution is rarely

[00:43:10] the best way forward in this case. So what is next for decolonist architecture? Sure well I think people that have been following DA may have noticed that we have been a bit quiet over the last year and that is simply because we were doing masters like this

[00:43:36] masses is one of the hardest things that we have done so it's I think now we are in 2024 we are kind of we are looking at capitalising on the things that we had learnt in the past

[00:43:49] essentially putting out our own published content and our own think pieces and also ensuring that we engage with universities and students in person and online a lot more so that architectural

[00:44:04] and education of the built environment in general this is not our approach we don't like it to be centered on just architecture there's other you know equally influential fields that deserve to be a part of the conversation and working with the universities and students to

[00:44:23] ensure that there is an architectural access to architecture and how can we do our part to platform voices and ideas that may have been sidelined in the past so that everyone can learn from

[00:44:40] a you know what the world has to offer where can people find out more about you like somewhere would you like to point people towards sure well everything always has anyone it's so on instagram we are decolonised architecture and www. decolonisedarchitecture.com if you ever if anyone

[00:45:03] listening like if you ever feel like you know we could be doing something better or you have an idea that we might not have covered we have open messaging portals on our website and obviously

[00:45:14] you can DM us on instagram on on our website there are you can submit projects you can if you'd like to work with us in the future there are portals where which you know point

[00:45:24] you know direction and we'd love to have a chat with you and yeah this is you know this is a collective effort so we'll have to get up yeah