#99: Sustainability Career Advice + 3 Circular Economy Case Studies, with Valentina Petrone

[00:00:09] Welcome to The Green Urbanist, a podcast for urbanists fighting climate change. I'm Ross.

[00:00:23] Hey you, welcome back to the podcast. If you're new here, The Green Urbanist podcast is all about how built environment professionals can take action on the climate and biodiversity crises and make cities more resilient, happy and healthy places.

[00:00:38] This episode is a conversation about circular economy with my guest, Valentina Petrone.

[00:00:44] So my name is Valentina Petrone. I'm originally from Italy, from Milan. From a professional background point of view, I have a degree in architecture and urban design and I have around eight years of experience in the construction industry.

[00:01:01] And around 10 years ago, I moved to Australia, first starting in Western Australia, in Perth and now in Sydney, where I'm currently talking from.

[00:01:12] One of the most common questions I get from listeners is for career advice on how to transition into sustainability focused roles or start to bring sustainability into their work, which is a great question.

[00:01:25] It's kind of the question.

[00:01:26] That's why I was really interested in part to talk to Valentina.

[00:01:29] In the first half of this episode, she tells us about her career journey from going from being an architect by training to becoming a circular economy expert in the private sector as a consultant,

[00:01:42] and then moving into her current role, which is as a senior sustainability manager in the New South Wales government in Australia.

[00:01:50] So there's lots of nuggets of wisdom in this episode about how you can do something similar and start to transition your career into a more sustainability focused role.

[00:02:00] After that, in the second part of the episode, we talk about three case studies of circular economy focused projects that Valentina has been involved in at the policy level, which is a circular design guide at the master plan level,

[00:02:14] which is for a large new settlement in New South Wales, and at the building level, which is for a circular refit of an office building.

[00:02:24] So it's kind of, you know, all the way from planning policy through to master planning and building design.

[00:02:29] She explains how she was able to bring in circular economy principles into those projects.

[00:02:34] And I think there's advice and inspiration there for you relevant to your projects as well.

[00:02:40] Before we jump in as a conversation, there's a quick caveat from Valentina.

[00:02:43] Given my role working for the state government, I always need to make it clear that my contribution to the podcast is as a circular economy subject matter expert,

[00:02:54] and I'm not representing the New South Wales state government.

[00:02:58] Okay, I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.

[00:03:03] So I was quite interested to hear a bit more about your career story.

[00:03:06] How did you get to the job you're in now and the projects that you're working on?

[00:03:11] And if you had any advice for people who are trying to do something similar?

[00:03:15] Sure.

[00:03:16] Sure.

[00:03:16] So definitely have an interesting profile.

[00:03:19] As I mentioned, I started with an architect and I was working mostly in Italy as a project architect.

[00:03:25] But since my university studies, I was always very interested in sustainability, environmental design, solar passive design strategies.

[00:03:36] And all of that eventuated into more energy saving design strategies.

[00:03:42] But that has always been my passion area.

[00:03:45] And I've been involved in interesting projects in Milan and in Italy with that focus.

[00:03:54] But to be honest, it was not the priority of the architectural firms where I were working on.

[00:03:59] And when moving to Australia, I started the first couple of years in Australia, still working in architecture.

[00:04:08] But I was that kind of passion to do something more for the environment was definitely growing.

[00:04:13] And I developed an interest in waste and waste avoidance and linking to that in community engagement and behaviour change.

[00:04:24] And where at some point, you know, moving the other side of the world and telling family that I was going to quit architecture and moving to the waste industry.

[00:04:33] People thought that I really wasn't losing my mind.

[00:04:36] And that the move to Australia was clearly not a good one.

[00:04:39] But in reality, I got really, really passionate because I always find that, you know, when you change a country and you get to know your new country, the new what's the interest there.

[00:04:51] And basically with waste and waste avoidance, there was and then social economy, there was a very strong interest in that topic.

[00:04:59] And that eventually brought me to start working as an environmental consultant in a boutique consultancy firm, which was specialised in providing advice on waste management and waste avoidance to architects, basically.

[00:05:14] So I think what's the common thread of my pathways, that I'm always gravitating around architecture, depending on which side of the desk I'm sitting, but always involved in that aspect of design and construction.

[00:05:34] And then when I moved to Sydney, I had another change in terms of career.

[00:05:42] So still in the consultancy space, but jumping from a very small firm to a very big firm, one of the biggest globally.

[00:05:49] And there I was always talking around the circular economy and was a very new topic in Australia.

[00:05:56] And when I was saying, you know, I'm very passionate about circular economy and people were asking me, circular what?

[00:06:01] What are you talking about?

[00:06:03] So it wasn't an easy journey, but it was a topic of growing interest.

[00:06:09] And I was always referring to Europe in terms of, you know, guidance and reference.

[00:06:15] And that eventually got me to the role of circular economy lead for this consultancy firm.

[00:06:20] And I had the opportunity to work on very interesting projects and to be really leading the conversation in Australia for the built environments.

[00:06:28] And very recently, three months ago, I did another interesting career change.

[00:06:35] And I started working for state governments of New South Wales, which is the state where Sydney is part, the capital city.

[00:06:43] And now my role has broadened up back to the broader concept of sustainability and environmental design.

[00:06:51] And I'm looking at climate change from both mitigation and adaptation side.

[00:06:58] That's great.

[00:06:59] That's great.

[00:06:59] It sounds like such a great role.

[00:07:00] Is this your first time working in public sector?

[00:07:04] Yes, it is.

[00:07:06] I've been working in the past four years.

[00:07:11] State governments have been one of my major clients in the consultancy.

[00:07:15] So when I was doing my research in thinking, where do I want to go next?

[00:07:22] Yeah, part of the reflection was to, you know, looking at the project I've enjoyed the most and understanding what were the drivers and what type of projects I really wanted to be involved.

[00:07:35] And that can probably lead in nicely to some advice I can share based on my experience to professionals that are looking to shift a bit in their career is definitely to reach out to people, to professionals that you value or you think they've done a good job.

[00:07:55] Because I find nowadays with all this media, even LinkedIn, everything always looks amazing.

[00:08:00] And you feel like, OK, I'm not doing enough.

[00:08:02] And in reality, people behind the screens are often in sustainability.

[00:08:07] They're all very passionate.

[00:08:08] At least in Australia, they come from very different backgrounds.

[00:08:11] And what I found is that by sharing what I was passionate about and what skills I was able to bring in, that's, you know, with a bit of persistence and asking and be ready to find the right opportunity.

[00:08:29] That's led me to, I think, to a good journey.

[00:08:33] Yeah, so try and get advice and support from people who are a bit further ahead in the journey from you.

[00:08:40] Correct.

[00:08:41] And I'm also always very curious and keep looking for different things.

[00:08:50] So I think being curious and asking questions is very important.

[00:08:53] For example, in my experience, I've been working, as I said, as a circle economy subject matter expert for a while.

[00:09:00] And given my background in design, my focus has been more on the first principle of circle economy.

[00:09:06] So design it at waste.

[00:09:08] And now my passion is moving more towards the third principle of regenerative design.

[00:09:14] And myself, you know, even if I'm nearly 20 years of career, I'm still listening to podcasts, reading and doing some training just to continue learning from others from different angles.

[00:09:29] And the other lesson I've learned, because I didn't expect to be appointed as, you know, working for the state governments.

[00:09:37] And it's always to try to apply, try to put your name out there and showcase your skills, because you never know.

[00:09:46] On the other side, they might be looking exactly for your skills and you might not even recognize all the elements that you can bring.

[00:09:54] So yeah, always just try to be positive and give it a go.

[00:09:59] And it might eventually become an opportunity.

[00:10:02] I think it's really interesting.

[00:10:04] Did your first career, you studied architecture, did that include sustainability as part of it in the education?

[00:10:12] Yes.

[00:10:13] Yes.

[00:10:14] So I studied in Milan at the Politecnico of Milan.

[00:10:18] And the degree has been a tough one.

[00:10:23] And I remember it was strongly joined with the Faculty of Engineering, which is just on the other side of the road.

[00:10:31] So definitely strong focus on maths and structures and those technical elements.

[00:10:37] But I also clearly remember a couple of units around environmental design, indoor comfort.

[00:10:48] And they were all related to physics and again, lots of maths, a lot of calcs.

[00:10:54] And I was one of the first in Milan to undertake the exam to become an energy auditor, energy assessor for units and buildings.

[00:11:06] And I was surrounded by engineers and some of the technical components on HVAC units.

[00:11:13] I was like, why am I doing this?

[00:11:16] Because, yes.

[00:11:18] So I think there was a good, now thinking back, there was a good balance around sustainability topics.

[00:11:27] But also the other elements I'm very passionate about is the social benefits and community.

[00:11:35] And that element was also present, which is, I think, which is good.

[00:11:41] Yeah, that's really interesting.

[00:11:42] My partner, Julia, also studied at Polymy and said the same thing that like the things around embody carbon and just general sustainable design,

[00:11:53] they were sort of years ahead of industry.

[00:11:55] So it's definitely a great start, I think, to study there and obviously makes you sort of more passionate, I guess, about bringing these things out into the real world.

[00:12:05] But let's talk a bit about, I think, something that people struggle with.

[00:12:09] And probably a big reason why people listen to podcasts like this is that you when you're in your career,

[00:12:15] you don't necessarily want to go back to university or have the means to go back.

[00:12:18] How do you upskill and how do you make sure you have the skills you need to work in a more sustainability focused role if you don't have a background in that?

[00:12:27] Yes, that's a very good point.

[00:12:29] The suggestion that I've been given is when you want to change your career, start looking for or write down what you think will be the perfect role for you

[00:12:42] and list what activities you would like to do day by day and which skills do you think you will need.

[00:12:48] And that will help you map out what are your gaps.

[00:12:51] And then another good suggestion is to look at the roles that are available and see where you think there could be some gaps.

[00:12:58] So I think having a bit of a targeted approach to what you need to learn.

[00:13:07] And that is more like a structured approach.

[00:13:10] And then there is, I think, the other side, which is also follow your passion.

[00:13:14] And there are lots of resources available online, which many of them are available for free.

[00:13:23] So that might give you a little bit of a first taste of what this topic could be.

[00:13:31] And then if you're interested, you can look for further education.

[00:13:35] I personally did at least three or four online courses from the edX format,

[00:13:46] which is very useful because you can do many courses for free at your own pace.

[00:13:53] And then if you're happy and you want to get the certificate, you pay a very limited fee.

[00:13:59] And that gives you a little bit of, you know, it's a bit of an official certificate.

[00:14:05] And then again, you can build step by step.

[00:14:08] And if there are specific requirements on job ads that you need to be certified in certain elements,

[00:14:16] then you can undertake further research and further studying.

[00:14:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

[00:14:24] So I think it's, you know, the message for people is that it's very doable to self-learn and use.

[00:14:31] There's so many resources online, free and paid, you know, informal and formal that you can really work towards.

[00:14:39] And hopefully, maybe you're in a job as well where, you know, they're happy for you to transition into more of a sustainability role.

[00:14:45] And you can do some of that learning in your office hours rather than your spare time would be the ideal situation.

[00:14:52] Correct. And I think if, you know, we're all very busy, it's a matter of understanding what are your priorities.

[00:14:59] And yeah, now with all the online courses, you can really listen to a podcast while you are commuting and then do additional research.

[00:15:10] And I fully agree with you, don't be shy in sharing your passion with your current job.

[00:15:15] And that might be a good opportunity to negotiate.

[00:15:19] Maybe you can have a couple of hours during your work time and then do the extra in your spare time and build your capacity.

[00:15:28] Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's basically people who listen to the podcast will be aware I've just released a new course, which is sustainability essentials for built environment professionals.

[00:15:38] So people can sort of get that first start and get an overview of various aspects of sustainability, including circular economy, but also net zero climate adaptation.

[00:15:48] So that's it. That's I sort of identified that need from talking to people that people needed somewhere to go to get that start and get a good overview.

[00:15:58] So there's a link. There's always a link to that in my episode description if people want to learn more.

[00:16:02] But I'm really interested to know why was it waste that you ended up moving into?

[00:16:08] And that might bring us into talking about some of your projects as well.

[00:16:12] Sure. So, yeah, when I moved to Australia,

[00:16:15] I was working in a very good architectural firm,

[00:16:21] but the project I was involved in,

[00:16:23] unfortunately, the client wasn't really driven on sustainability.

[00:16:27] And at the time, there were limited

[00:16:31] requirements in terms of design codes looking for

[00:16:37] environmental and sustainable design.

[00:16:39] So I was a bit unlucky and frustrated from that end.

[00:16:42] So that was kind of an excuse and an opportunity to understand more what

[00:16:49] what what what people wanted and get in touch with with the local community.

[00:16:54] And when I was, you know, chatting with with people, met with my kids at school, other parents,

[00:16:59] you know, when you're new in a country, you're trying to talk with everybody.

[00:17:02] And I was sharing my passion and talking about items like insulation and double glazing.

[00:17:09] And all those topics were very new to Australia because they were very lucky that the weather can be very,

[00:17:16] very mild compared to Europe.

[00:17:17] And I realized that with waste because it was visible, more simple.

[00:17:23] And everybody, you know, have ever been in their household.

[00:17:27] That topic was was sparking a bit of conversation.

[00:17:32] And then I joined a local community group supported by the local council.

[00:17:38] And they organized some events.

[00:17:42] I was as a volunteer organizing events around.

[00:17:48] For example, we organized a beach cleanup.

[00:17:51] So you meet on a Sunday morning, a beautiful, pristine beach.

[00:17:54] And unfortunately, there is some way.

[00:17:55] So you were collecting that.

[00:17:56] And through that, you were talking.

[00:17:57] So I think was for me was a way to get to know more my new kind of community that I was living in

[00:18:06] and still feeling that I was doing something positive for the environment,

[00:18:13] which probably I was not getting at the stage in architecture.

[00:18:17] And then I because I was looking for a new role, then I started that journey of talking to people.

[00:18:23] And I was without asking directly for a job.

[00:18:27] I was asking, you know, explaining I'm new to Australia.

[00:18:29] I'm passionate in this topic.

[00:18:31] Who do you suggest I talk to?

[00:18:33] And step by step, I ended up into the person that then offered me a job.

[00:18:39] Wow, that's so interesting.

[00:18:40] That bit of networking is so important.

[00:18:43] Correct.

[00:18:43] Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:44] I think waste and circular economy is a really interesting thing.

[00:18:48] I spoke to an architect recently off the podcast who is very focused on sustainability.

[00:18:55] And he said that he finds with his clients, he can get them much more excited about circular economy

[00:19:01] and material reuse and avoiding waste much more easily than getting him excited about reducing emissions

[00:19:08] because it just feels much more tangible.

[00:19:10] And I think the principles behind it can be explained very easily and quite quickly.

[00:19:15] And then people can start to see how in their projects it can take shape.

[00:19:20] Has that been your experience as well?

[00:19:24] Absolutely.

[00:19:25] So when I was doing some behavior change and running some events, again, on a volunteer capacity,

[00:19:34] talking about waste was, yeah, I agree with you, was much easier.

[00:19:40] In Australia, there is a large use of disposable coffee cup.

[00:19:44] And just bringing the example of the difference between using a disposable coffee cup,

[00:19:47] that you buy your coffee, you drink it very quickly and you throw it away, straight away.

[00:19:52] And then for many reasons in Australia, that cup end up into landfill compared to a reusable cup.

[00:19:57] That was very simple to grasp.

[00:20:01] And to the point then we were doing a little bit of a quick exercise to how do you fold the newspaper

[00:20:09] to create a bean bag instead of using a plastic bag.

[00:20:13] And you could see people from any age go home happy because they had something done

[00:20:19] and they could start their little journey.

[00:20:21] And still I hear from people that still do the little origami wrapping to use in their bean,

[00:20:28] which I know is a really small drop into the ocean.

[00:20:31] But my hope and my approach is that we need change from all levels.

[00:20:39] So definitely policy from government, legislation, but also strong behavior change

[00:20:45] and talking to kids in school and explaining all the reasoning.

[00:20:52] I always try to keep my conversation very positive because life is really difficult.

[00:20:56] We don't want to be all depressed, but just keeping it simple and everybody can play their role.

[00:21:04] That's great.

[00:21:05] I mean, I do feel like we need to meet people where they are.

[00:21:10] Some people will be ready for a more radical message, but other people are not ready for that.

[00:21:15] And yeah, climate communication is a really important topic.

[00:21:21] And yeah, I think you touched on some really good tips there.

[00:21:25] We'll be really interested to know about some of your...

[00:21:28] We've sort of been teasing people about your projects a little bit in the conversation

[00:21:31] that we're going to talk about three really interesting projects now in different levels of scale, basically.

[00:21:40] And maybe starting with, I think was the most recent, which is the circular design guidance for...

[00:21:45] Is it the state government?

[00:21:48] Correct.

[00:21:50] When I was working as a consultant, I was supporting the state governments on the development of the first circular design guidelines

[00:21:58] for the built environment.

[00:22:00] They've been the first to be designed in Australia and they've gone through a process of approval

[00:22:07] and they've been published early in 2023.

[00:22:11] And I think the main goal of these guidelines is to provide the first kind of step for all stakeholders in the construction industry

[00:22:28] around the concept of circular design for the built environment

[00:22:32] with a strong focus on design strategies to minimize the creation of waste in the first place.

[00:22:40] And these guidelines have been then shared across the industry

[00:22:47] and they ties in very well with the government's net zero targets.

[00:22:53] And they, I think another important element is that there is, of course, recognition of the importance of recycling,

[00:23:01] but in a circular economy, we're trying to go beyond just recycling.

[00:23:04] So really looking at strategies like adaptive reuse, design for disassembly, design for longevity,

[00:23:11] and ease of maintenance, modularity.

[00:23:13] So can we design a facade where all the facade panels are the same size and shape

[00:23:18] and we can easily remove them and replace if needed.

[00:23:23] And also looking at from the end of the life cycle, how can we easily disassemble or dismantle different components?

[00:23:32] And ideally, trying to promote product stewardship and leasing agreements.

[00:23:38] Here in Australia, this is still very, very, very new.

[00:23:43] There's not many suppliers offering this type of services.

[00:23:48] So it's something we are still pushing towards and very, very important to achieve a truly circularity of materials.

[00:23:56] So I'm not familiar at all with the Australian planning system.

[00:24:01] So can you tell me in the system, what sort of weight does this sort of document hold?

[00:24:06] If people are making planning applications, are they expected to stick to it?

[00:24:10] Or is it more like optional guidance?

[00:24:13] You're making me cry with this question.

[00:24:15] So when we started, the goal was that this guidance was going to be referred in one of the main planning documents.

[00:24:27] Then unfortunately, due to political changes, it hasn't been referred as strongly as we would have hoped.

[00:24:37] So at the moment, when we talk about guidance, it means that is a suggestion.

[00:24:42] But yeah, it's there.

[00:24:44] And it's a matter of the level of maturity of the construction industry in Australia.

[00:24:50] I feel that now we are going fairly well in terms of net zero and electrification and mitigation.

[00:24:59] So I hope that at some point this guideline will be brought back in and incorporated a bit more.

[00:25:08] Yeah, I mean, it's a familiar story, I think, to anyone who works with local governments.

[00:25:16] As a consultant, I've worked on really good studies and strategies that then never got adopted

[00:25:21] because there was a political change or something happened that meant,

[00:25:25] oh, we're not quite, can't really publish this or whatever.

[00:25:29] So it is a reality of working in this field, isn't it?

[00:25:32] But I think the fact that it exists now and it's a kind of a soft power that, you know,

[00:25:40] these things exist and that there's a push and there's a signaling to the industry that this is what's expected,

[00:25:46] even if it isn't a sort of hard rule yet.

[00:25:51] Correct.

[00:25:52] Hopefully a stepping stone towards something a bit more strict.

[00:25:58] So what kind of, what were some of the contents in terms of, was it quite focused on architecture

[00:26:04] or was there also guidance for, say, master plans as well?

[00:26:09] Yes, it was fairly, the scope was fairly broad and was looking at infrastructure precincts and buildings,

[00:26:18] which was a bit of a challenge when we, because from one end they wanted this very broad application

[00:26:26] and on the other end there was an interest in having very practical and, you know, practical advice.

[00:26:35] So that was a bit of a challenge.

[00:26:37] I think the part that is most relevant is definitely the, there are 13 circular design strategies that are suggested

[00:26:47] and those are, you know, eye level enough to be, to be applied to all different scales.

[00:26:56] And the, I think the other element that we tried basically for every strategy, there is a one pager just trying to describe a quick definition

[00:27:06] what are the outcomes and what actions a designer could implement.

[00:27:10] And then there is a case study or a little snip on a project for reference.

[00:27:16] So it's, it's trying to encourage stakeholders in the construction industry to get this first taste of what could be

[00:27:27] circular design for the built environment and further do their research and reading and understanding the,

[00:27:35] what could look like because of the, of the being guidelines, there aren't any specific requirements to, to respond to.

[00:27:44] So that's why it's a first step.

[00:27:47] Yeah, it's, it's, it's a really nice document.

[00:27:48] And I do like that this case studies kind of quite frequently, frequently throughout,

[00:27:54] because I think so, well, I think so many of us working in the built environment and design fields are very visual people.

[00:28:00] And we, we, we, we, you know, we really build on things that have happened before.

[00:28:04] And it's really important to see proofs, proof of concept of how things have worked before.

[00:28:08] So I'll link, I'll make sure to link to it in the episode description so people can go and have a look.

[00:28:13] And I think even if you're not working, you know, in, in, in the state or in Australia, it's, it's a nice document actually to go through.

[00:28:19] And I'm sure you'll pick up some, some good tips from it.

[00:28:23] Um, what would you, if you had, um, we'll say a client or, or somebody, a developer or an architect come to you and say,

[00:28:31] okay, I'm, I, I'm, I'm getting on board with this circular economy thing.

[00:28:34] I have a development site.

[00:28:36] Like what, where do I start?

[00:28:38] Like, what's the first thing I should know?

[00:28:40] Or what's a good way to get started with it?

[00:28:42] Yeah, that's a very good question.

[00:28:45] Definitely the, in my experience, uh, that is a circular economy approach should be embedded during every stage of the design process.

[00:28:57] So sometimes we start at, uh, you know, conceptual design early, early stages of design with the greatest ideas.

[00:29:04] And then we get through the process and, you know, value engineering in multiple issues.

[00:29:09] We kind of forget the, the wishlist at the beginning.

[00:29:11] So what, uh, I, I found myself, uh, in, in many projects having this, uh, role of basically reminding the whole project team that we were aiming for those goals and those elements to be embedded.

[00:29:27] And, you know, we, we need to get back to the drawing board and, uh, and really check, are we trying to embed those design strategies?

[00:29:36] What are we doing?

[00:29:37] What are the challenges?

[00:29:38] And what I always recommend is to try to document both the, the good news and also the, the, the challenges.

[00:29:45] What's, uh, could not be done because we can do everything on a project.

[00:29:49] And also the other thing is that sometimes there are some good initiatives that, uh, are labeled as, uh, um, you know, different design choices or design review.

[00:30:02] There are actually, uh, there are actually, is, uh, is, uh, an evolution of the design where we're actually, for example, uh, saving the use of, uh, X amount of materials.

[00:30:10] Or maybe, uh, we, uh, we, you know, we, we, we have reduced the, um, you know, the, for example, the, the height of a basement car park.

[00:30:21] So we are saving into soil to be excavated.

[00:30:24] So some, some processes that any designer and architect will do, but we are just, uh, not documenting that, uh, in, um, keeping, uh, a circle economy approach or a more holistic approach in mind.

[00:30:35] So basically what is often the challenge is when you get to convince the client that we say, why should I do this?

[00:30:43] Where is the cost saving?

[00:30:44] And you don't have the, uh, the data basically to, to explain that.

[00:30:49] So I would say starting very early, get someone to keep you on track, like keeping, making sure that we are still incorporating as many aspects of a sustainable design approach as we can.

[00:31:02] And trying to document as much as possible what, uh, what, what has been done in, in, in the process.

[00:31:10] Yeah.

[00:31:10] It's very, it's very easy for these things to slip down the priority list, especially when it's something new and it's not maybe something that, you know, if you're an architect or a developer or whatever, not something you're used to doing.

[00:31:22] I think it's quite easy to slip back into the status quo and let, let that slip.

[00:31:26] Um, so I really liked that idea of, yeah, starting with a strong vision and making sure you, you follow through with that.

[00:31:32] And that also that it's like an integral part of the design approach and not thinking of it as like, where can we fit in a bit of circular economy?

[00:31:41] You know, it's actually a much more holistic approach.

[00:31:43] Uh, and I think can make projects very exciting and, and can be a great, you know, design challenge and a great, um, opportunity for people to, you know, do something really interesting and different with their projects.

[00:31:55] So hopefully people can embrace that.

[00:31:58] Uh, correct.

[00:31:59] And, uh, a, a big challenge we, we have in Australia and other countries where we are looking, we are trying to incorporate, uh, first nation people design principle and their approach to, to country and their respect for country, which is, uh, you know, it's very, it's very difficult.

[00:32:17] If, when we think about how we, we approach any major infrastructure or major asset projects and developments.

[00:32:22] So there is also this, uh, this, uh, this, uh, lens, uh, to be added, uh, particularly in Australia in terms of, of projects.

[00:32:30] And that is another area where I'm very interested in doing some, uh, learning and, and, and studying myself because it's, it's very new and didn't have that definitely from my studies in Italy.

[00:32:41] So, so always something new to learn.

[00:32:44] Yeah, that, that, that is very interesting and very, very place specific.

[00:32:48] Um, although I guess there's lots of countries around the world that could, could learn from that approach as well.

[00:32:53] Um, should we, should we move on to your, uh, Bradfield city center or was there anything else on the design guidance before we go?

[00:33:02] I'm happy to, to move to the Bradfield city center.

[00:33:06] Great.

[00:33:06] Well, this looks like quite an interesting master plan.

[00:33:09] So yeah, tell me a bit about the story of what this is.

[00:33:11] Um, and what, what, what are some of the sustainability aspects of it?

[00:33:15] Sure.

[00:33:15] So Bradfield city center is a brand new, uh, large scale development in the greater Sydney area.

[00:33:22] So in the, in Sydney, the Western area is under a, an important, uh, re redevelopment expansion.

[00:33:31] In 2026, we will have a new international airport.

[00:33:36] And beside that, uh, there will, there is this, uh, new, they call it the new city is 114 hectares of, of, of land.

[00:33:44] And the plan there is to develop, uh, the very first circular city in Australia.

[00:33:51] Um, I had the privilege to be working in, in collaboration with the state government, again, as a, from a consultant point of view.

[00:33:57] And I have co-authored the, uh, master planning circle economy strategy.

[00:34:03] And, uh, and that's, uh, that strategy includes some elements taken from the circular design guidelines.

[00:34:10] So starting to set the, the key design strategies that we wanted all the architects and developers that were going one day to develop the individual lots within the master plan.

[00:34:21] To be following that, uh, uh, guidance.

[00:34:23] And we wanted to have, uh, a holistic master plan approach because one challenge as an architect, I know that once a key decision from a master planning and precinct point of view have been done.

[00:34:35] You end up with a piece of land and does not, you know, you can do still, still do a lot of things, but big decisions have already been made.

[00:34:43] So we really wanted to have this, uh, um, in this strategy to include, uh, the key, key design strategies.

[00:34:51] And they were looking at, uh, um, in the approach included, for example, having, uh, sharing basements across different, uh, um, buildings.

[00:35:02] Uh, uh, we are looking to, uh, develop a, um, last mile logistics hub.

[00:35:08] So trying to keep the precinct as pedestrian friendly as possible.

[00:35:11] There is going to be a circle economy hub looking to, um, engage with the future local community and, uh, creating also new job opportunities in the areas where in the, in the circle economy hub, there will be a repair center, some training facilities.

[00:35:27] And, uh, even though those concepts are not new and, uh, on paper, not too difficult to realize, the main challenge was the fight for the space, for the land.

[00:35:36] So having certain amount of square meters of a brand new development allocated to those uses was a very big, uh, big win.

[00:35:44] There was also an interesting, uh, approach in terms of food waste collection.

[00:35:50] So in Australia, um, food waste is not normally, uh, collected in, in, as a separate stream, like it's happening in Europe.

[00:35:58] It's a requirement by 2030 and we are trialing different, uh, uh, solutions.

[00:36:04] And for the Bradfield City Center, um, we proposed, uh, a, an integrated approach where basically the, uh, the food waste was macerated on site and collected on, on, on, in a tank.

[00:36:17] And the sludge will be taken to, uh, the local, um, advanced water treatment plants.

[00:36:24] So a good example of, uh, uh, uh, industrial symbiosis where the waste from one asset might become the input for another asset.

[00:36:32] And, um, overall the wares, we set a very ambitious target for Australia in terms of waste avoidance.

[00:36:40] So in Australia, we always only talk about, uh, uh, recycling rights for this development.

[00:36:46] The first time we set a waste reduction target.

[00:36:50] So targeting to reduce the, by 50% the amount on average generated of both operational waste and construction and demolition waste.

[00:37:00] I think, you know, it, it, I think it showcases what opportunities are there at a master plan scale to really take circular economy and, and, and other sustainability.

[00:37:12] Principles, you know, to, to, to another scale.

[00:37:15] And there, there seems to be benefits of scale with these things where, um, you can start to get more of a closed loop system.

[00:37:21] Whereas if you're just working on a, uh, a one building, we'll say in isolation, it's, it's, it's very difficult to, to do that.

[00:37:28] So really, really exciting.

[00:37:30] It's, it's a, I think it's projected to be about 10,000 people.

[00:37:33] Is that right?

[00:37:34] Um, correct.

[00:37:36] Is, um, the, the brief was around, uh, a mixed use.

[00:37:41] So there will be some advanced manufacturing and, um, there will be, um, a good, the percentage of commercial offices and also new, new homes.

[00:37:53] And in particularly a percentage of affordable housing, because in Australia at the moment, we have big, big challenges with affordable housing.

[00:38:00] And, uh, from, uh, a regenerative design and, uh, nature-based solution and, an approach, uh, there has been a strong attention into retaining, um, a, an existing wet area and trying to maximize, uh, as much as possible.

[00:38:17] The use of, um, you know, having green, green space, having, uh, and there will be a large parkland and, uh, um, the majority of new assets will have a green, green roof.

[00:38:29] Which, in Australia, even though it's very hot and dry, it's not very common.

[00:38:35] So it was a big win as well.

[00:38:38] Great, great.

[00:38:38] I mean, I think there's, I mean, it's obviously quite a unique project, but also there is stuff of a similar scale happening.

[00:38:44] I know in the UK, I'm sure across Europe, as countries are dealing with housing shortages and starting to think about how can we actually deliver the mass of, not just housing, but.

[00:38:55] But, excuse me.

[00:38:58] And I think in this case, it's not just housing, but it's actually creating a community and a mixed use, like a proper city that has, um, all the, you know, employment and amenities and everything attached to it, which is, which is great to see because.

[00:39:12] Yeah, I think there's just, there's an awful lot of, uh, you know, plots of land with suburban houses on it that aren't really connected to anything else that I see in, you know, all across the world, really.

[00:39:23] So, I mean, this is a much better model for sure.

[00:39:26] Um, correct.

[00:39:27] And particularly in Australia, unfortunately, the urban sprawl is, has been a very popular model.

[00:39:35] I think I was looking at, uh, it was an article a couple of days ago showing basically the, the size of a greater Sydney area compared to, to Berlin and even Melbourne compared to other, um, you know, European capitals.

[00:39:49] We have far less population and, uh, the square meters usage is, is really massive.

[00:39:57] So we have definitely a problem with urban sprawl and yeah.

[00:40:01] Good opportunities.

[00:40:02] Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:04] I mean, new, new development.

[00:40:05] I always think it's sort of like, it's the almost unspoken challenge often with, um, with addressing climate change in, in urban areas is that it's really great to get the new developments right.

[00:40:17] But we often don't really know what to do with a lot of the existing built environment and neighborhoods that we have.

[00:40:22] And just this idea of saying, if we have, uh, you know, suburban areas, places that are inherently, uh, less sustainable, what, what, what, what, you know, where there needs to be some serious thought in, in the near future about how we retrofit those to be more climate adapted, to be more, uh, reduced emissions, to start to build more community.

[00:40:43] Um, and that kind of thing.

[00:40:45] So that's, um, yeah, that's another interesting conversation.

[00:40:47] I'm not, I'm not aware of any local authorities or local governments who are really tackling that seriously, but if any listeners know, let me know.

[00:40:56] Cause I'd love to find out more about that.

[00:40:58] What's the sort of time scale of this?

[00:41:00] When do you think things it's obviously still in its design stage, I guess?

[00:41:04] Uh, correct.

[00:41:05] So the master plan was, uh, recently, uh, officially approved and it has been, uh, the, the planning has been staged.

[00:41:14] So the first building, which is a very nice building and, uh, is designed to be nearly fully disassembled and looking at, uh, um, sustainable, the use of sustainable materials, et cetera, should be not far from completion.

[00:41:28] And also building number two, which is the advanced manufacturing should be starting construction soon.

[00:41:34] And then understand the different stages will depend on, uh, uh, private investments.

[00:41:40] So state governments is looking for privates to be, um, you know, involved in supporting the development of the new city.

[00:41:48] Oh, cool.

[00:41:49] So there is stuff, the ground has been broken, basically.

[00:41:51] There is stuff happening.

[00:41:53] Correct.

[00:41:53] So it's, it's starting with employment.

[00:41:56] Is that right?

[00:41:57] And then the homes would come later.

[00:41:59] Um, I think that the first two buildings, um, are more in,

[00:42:04] industrial on the advanced manufacturing space.

[00:42:07] And there should be also a new building for CSIRO, which is, uh, a, is a government led, uh, organization looking at, uh, uh, scientific research.

[00:42:19] So I think that the government is trying to, to, to, to, to start to show that the city is actually, you know, starting to, um, to be built.

[00:42:29] And, uh, in parallel to that, uh, looking for engagement with, uh, with private companies to, to develop further the other lots.

[00:42:38] Yeah, that makes, that makes sense.

[00:42:40] One more question before we move on, um, cause I see time is ticking over quickly, uh, which is the sign of a good conversation.

[00:42:48] Um, uh, you mentioned that there's a circular, there will be a circular economy hub, um, on the site.

[00:42:53] What does that actually mean?

[00:42:55] And what, what will happen there?

[00:42:56] Sure.

[00:42:57] The vision for the Cirque Economy Hub is a place, uh, uh, where, uh, particularly the, the future local community, uh, will be able to, uh, to come together and, uh, understand the value of materials.

[00:43:11] And that will be, uh, very likely, uh, co-located with, uh, last mile logistics.

[00:43:17] So in, in the vision, in the strategy, the idea is that, uh, you know, nowadays we're all buying lots of stuff online and, uh, we, we receive the courier.

[00:43:26] So even starting from, um, um, you know, cardboard packaging, that, uh, ideally could go back with, uh, the, with the courier, or if not going back and be reused straight in the Cirque Economy Hub.

[00:43:38] And the hub, uh, ideally we'll have a repair cafe and, uh, there will be space for, uh, for sharing like a tool library.

[00:43:48] And, uh, because we are looking at the whole city, uh, ideally that's would scale up and, and, and really become a point of reference.

[00:43:56] So, uh, in my vision, hopefully it's not too naive.

[00:43:59] The, the city could really be definitely, there's a push to be plastic free.

[00:44:04] Okay.

[00:44:05] And, uh, having that strong sense of community and sharing, not everyone needs a drill.

[00:44:11] If you live in an apartment block and, uh, um, looking at, yeah, opportunities to, to, to come together because we, so in Australia, we, from what I end, we are lucky that, uh, you know, lots of people live in, in, uh, independent, um, houses.

[00:44:30] And, uh, there's still that, uh, uh, connection with your neighbors, but coming from Europe, I know that when we start building tall and having lots of units in, in one building, that's, uh, connection might, might fail.

[00:44:44] So, uh, trying to, to, to find ways, uh, that there will be a community garden.

[00:44:49] So, ways for the, the community to, to come together with excuse of, uh, sharing tools, sharing, uh, sharing economy approach.

[00:44:58] And, uh, depending on the scale that will be available, the idea is that there will be also a commercial components and, uh, uh, space for startups.

[00:45:08] So, they will have, uh, the space and office to, to go there, working there.

[00:45:11] And, uh, depending on what type of materials will flow within the, the, the, the new city, uh, I think that could be also a good opportunity for, um, building materials and construction materials, depending on the different assets.

[00:45:28] So, it's, um, yeah, it's broadly speaking, trying to come together to understand that could be a, a, a way of living and sharing that's different to a business as usual and wasteful approach.

[00:45:43] Yeah, that's, that's great.

[00:45:44] I really like, really like the sound of that.

[00:45:46] And I think the community aspect of it is, is really important as well.

[00:45:50] And I do really feel passionately that, uh, creating the spaces and encouraging communities to form, you know, real community bonds and friendships, um, is a sustainability intervention by itself.

[00:46:04] Because when you know people, you, you look at, look after each other, you know, you check on each other in heat waves, you share resources, um, and, you know, that sort of.

[00:46:14] So, another office, so in, in Australia, like all over the world, um, there is, uh, a, you know, often there is a change of, of leasing, like five to seven years.

[00:47:06] Companies just decide to move to a different office and the business as usual approach is that the previous fit out, even if in good condition, gets fully stripped out.

[00:47:16] Often, just for timing reasons, it gets all sent to landfill and the new tenant will have a fully new, new design.

[00:47:24] So, we, we decided to avoid that, that approach and to, um, implement, uh, a circle design approach from the very start of the project.

[00:47:35] So, we basically refurbished, um, the, the, the floors where the, the office was, was already, um, located.

[00:47:43] And, uh, we, um, we implemented, uh, a circle design approach from the very beginning, which means that we started with, uh, a, undertaking, um,

[00:47:54] a survey, uh, of what was, uh, currently in use in the office, decided what, uh, for example, what, uh, uh, furniture and which desk, uh, where, where good to keep.

[00:48:05] So, we have done a full inventory of, uh, of, uh, of, uh, what was available.

[00:48:09] Then in partnership with, uh, you know, with, uh, with, uh, with the head office and the, uh, you know, the, the, the clients and, uh, the, with the architects, we, uh, and, and the other, uh, different disciplines, uh, we, uh, we together defined the, the design approach,

[00:48:28] which, uh, um, included, uh, um, consideration of the circular design guidelines.

[00:48:35] So, we started to look at what can we retain, uh, what can be, um, retained as is in place, what can be disassembled, uh, stored temporarily and then reinstalled once the renovation was completed,

[00:48:47] what could be minimally, uh, you know, changed and, and refurbished.

[00:48:52] And then, of course, there were some items that were not fit for purpose anymore and we looked as much as we could for opportunities for donation and, if not possible, uh, maximizing opportunity for recycling.

[00:49:03] It was very, very interesting to be able to, to, to work and coordinate the, the architects, which was an external company.

[00:49:12] But then all the key, um, engineering disciplines, because I was an engineering firm, were internal.

[00:49:18] So, we had this role to go around and tap on the shoulder of our colleagues and sit down with the, the mechanical engineer team, with the hydraulic team,

[00:49:27] and basically start the conversation and uplifting of their, um, uh, of their skills and, uh, understanding of, of, of the importance of this different design approach.

[00:49:38] And it was, uh, for me, it was really, um, really interesting and very empowering to see how, you know,

[00:49:46] all the colleagues were very interested in, in doing this and they all felt, uh, really encouraged to, uh, think beyond business as usual to make this happen.

[00:49:56] Um, at the end, the result is that we, we have tried to document, as I said, as much as possible.

[00:50:02] Sometimes it was not easy when the, the demolition crew came in.

[00:50:06] It was very, very hard, busy days on site because the motion crew, a very tight timeline.

[00:50:11] They just go in and strip everything out.

[00:50:13] So, we were putting stickers and notes and checking, making sure they didn't break things.

[00:50:19] And the, the construction company on site at the beginning, they were a bit concerned about our request,

[00:50:26] but then we, they were super on board and they even go beyond, uh, what we, we told them on some elements.

[00:50:34] For example, some large, uh, um, glass doors.

[00:50:39] I, we didn't think that were, they could have been dismantled and reused, but they managed to do that.

[00:50:44] So, it, it was a very good, uh, uh, collaborative, uh, project.

[00:50:51] And at the end, uh, we, we picked, uh, around, uh, 10 top materials just to run some calcs.

[00:50:58] And, uh, we estimated that, uh, uh, we have saved around $1 million from not purchasing new.

[00:51:06] And that included particularly ceiling tiles, uh, and some air conditioning ducting, uh, blinds and, uh, um, and skirting boards,

[00:51:16] power and data cabling, particularly the, the workstation, they were, uh, refurbished.

[00:51:21] And from standard workstation, they were, uh, the legs was replaced and the mechanism to make them sit to stand was added.

[00:51:29] The lockers, I didn't know lockers cost us so much.

[00:51:32] Saving the lockers was a big, uh, big saving.

[00:51:34] And, uh, there are some, some datas around the upfront carbon saved.

[00:51:40] And, uh,

[00:52:11] I'm glad you mentioned the cost savings because as, as you were talking about the process, I was thinking,

[00:52:17] of course, it, it, it takes more of your time, presumably to go through this process, to be there when the contractors are in and make sure everything's happening right.

[00:52:26] But I, you know, I, I can't imagine your time is so expensive that a million dollars in saving was not, uh, still, you know, a massive, uh, cost reduction for the project overall.

[00:52:37] Uh, correct.

[00:52:38] And the challenge, because, uh, at least in Australia, we didn't have many benchmark data.

[00:52:43] And, uh, sometimes when you even find data, you know, it can be always be, be challenged before a business in the very strong business case.

[00:52:51] And this was a, a very good, uh, uh, real life experience because yeah, we, yeah, we, we have the data.

[00:52:59] And so we, we, we, we have demonstrated just by picking some, uh, some elements, uh, how much has been, has been saved, uh, in, in, in not purchasing new.

[00:53:08] And of course there has been, as you said, at the time for our hands and from the, the buildings on site, et cetera, but definitely not to, uh, be, uh, equivalent to the savings estimated.

[00:53:20] So.

[00:53:21] Yeah, it's a great, I mean, it must be a great demonstrator project for, for WSP to be able to show clients and to sort of, as you're sitting in the building in a meeting, just to say, well, when we, when we did the circular fit out on this building, we did this and this and this and had all these benefits.

[00:53:35] So I think that's really powerful for people to take what can feel quite theoretical, maybe to actually see a place where it's the, the principles have been put in practice, uh, and to realize that actually it is possible and it has lots of benefits attached to it as well.

[00:53:50] Thank you so much, Vandine.

[00:53:51] I really enjoyed the conversation.

[00:53:53] Great to hear what's happening on the other side of the world in terms of circular economy.

[00:53:58] Um, and yeah, it's been, it's been great.

[00:54:00] Thank you for having me.

[00:54:01] It's been, it's been a pleasure.

[00:54:09] I hope you enjoyed that episode and you've been learning a lot from the Green Urbanist podcast.

[00:54:13] If you're at the start of your sustainability journey and you want to kickstart your learning and figure out how to take climate action in your work, I definitely recommend checking out my online course, which is called Sustainability Essentials for Built Environment Professionals.

[00:54:28] It's a self-paced online course with video lessons and advice for integrating sustainability into your work.

[00:54:35] The link to the course is in the episode description.

[00:54:37] Do check it out and consider enrolling.