#95: EcoResponsive Environments: Designing with Natural Systems

[00:00:00] We felt as a group and as a team, and there are four co-authors involved, was that even in the built environment, in the context of climate emergency as well as social isolation, the way we approach design needs to have a much more deeper understanding of natural systems across all scales of design.

[00:00:26] Welcome to The Green Urbanist, a podcast for urbanists fighting climate change. I'm Ross.

[00:00:41] Well, hello there. Today's episode is a conversation with Prachi Rampuria and Soham De.

[00:00:48] They are co-founders of an urban design practice called EcoResponsive Environments and are co-authors of a book by the same name.

[00:00:56] They joined me on this episode to discuss the concept of designing settlements with an understanding of natural systems as the starting point.

[00:01:03] This approach, which is set out in their book, EcoResponsive Environments, is the result of 13 years of research and testing.

[00:01:11] And they tell me about how to apply these concepts in practice with examples from their own master planning projects in the UK.

[00:01:19] Their perspective is really refreshing. The conversation isn't about just mitigating the impact of urban areas on the environment.

[00:01:25] It's about working with nature and enhancing biodiversity, flood resilience, climate resilience and nature connection through the design process.

[00:01:34] They bring together knowledge from multiple disciplines like sustainability, landscape ecology, water management and present it in a useful way for designers in their book.

[00:01:46] One of my favourite parts of the conversation is when we talk about the role of placemaking in sustainability.

[00:01:53] You can find links to their website and to the book in the episode description.

[00:01:58] Before we get into the conversation, I just want to let you know that I'm currently working on some online training materials, an online course about sustainability.

[00:02:06] And I'll be reaching out to my newsletter subscribers about that in the next month to see if anyone would like to get involved with being some of the first people to try that out.

[00:02:16] So if that sounds interesting to you, make sure you're on my newsletter list.

[00:02:20] You can subscribe by finding the link that's in the episode description.

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[00:02:31] Follow that link, put in your email address and you'll be the first to know when that goes live.

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[00:02:41] OK, cool. Enjoy the episode.

[00:02:48] As you mentioned, you guys have a new book out, which is called Eco-Responsive Environments.

[00:02:53] People may have heard or many people probably read the book that was the precursor to this, which was Responsive Environments.

[00:03:02] Can you tell us, I suppose, a bit about that story of how this book came about?

[00:03:07] What is it about? Why did you write it? Et cetera.

[00:03:10] And that'll sort of set us up for the rest of the conversation.

[00:03:13] So Responsive Environments was first published in 1985.

[00:03:15] And I think it went on to become a classic in the urban design culture, particularly having a lot of influence in UK planning.

[00:03:25] However, and the new book, which was released this year in 2024.

[00:03:30] So there's almost a gap of 40 years.

[00:03:33] And so one of the main things that egged us to work on the book, which we have been for almost 13 years.

[00:03:41] So from 2024, I think it would be.

[00:03:45] Yeah, it's been more than a decade that, you know, it's taken to get this published.

[00:03:50] It was just that we we felt as a group and as a team.

[00:03:56] And there are four co-authors involved was that even in the built environment,

[00:04:01] in the context of climate emergency as well as social isolation.

[00:04:07] The way we approach design needs to have a much more deeper understanding of natural systems across all scales of design.

[00:04:14] And it's not and that shouldn't be just in terms of numbers that, oh, we are solving the flood issue or we are solving, you know, kind of we are planting X number of trees.

[00:04:25] It also needs to take an experiential perspective.

[00:04:28] And that was something we felt was not addressed that well.

[00:04:32] The second thing that we felt was a gap was that there are there is a lot of literature available on sustainability and really good literature, actually an overwhelming amount of literature.

[00:04:44] But a lot of that literature is actually addressed or addresses a specific aspect of sustainability.

[00:04:50] So it's very focused or angled towards a particular discipline, like it could be transport.

[00:04:58] It could be sensory experience of built environment.

[00:05:02] It could just be architecture and retrofitting of buildings or it could just be focused on materials.

[00:05:07] But what we really wanted to sort of explore is the idea of a lot sort of a idea of multiscalar sustainability and the idea of joined up and holistic sustainability.

[00:05:20] Because I think as a group, we believed that the solutions to the world's most complex and interconnected problems won't come from a single specialism or subject.

[00:05:31] We need to bring together experts and we need to bring together knowledge across arts, sciences and humanities.

[00:05:38] And I think that is why the structure of the book is extremely multidisciplinary.

[00:05:43] It covers a wide range of disciplines right from landscape ecology, transport.

[00:05:48] How do we sort of plan for healthy neighborhoods in terms of land uses and then architecture and sensory experience and manifestation?

[00:05:58] So I think that would be the two main reasons from my perspective.

[00:06:02] But so my dad.

[00:06:04] Yeah, I mean, Ross, when you mentioned how it started and its link with the classic responsive environments,

[00:06:16] having a discussion with Ian and Sue, who were the co-authors of the 1985 publication,

[00:06:29] and us being students at that time, you know, being an avid reader of that book,

[00:06:36] it was, that book was, it was really practical.

[00:06:42] It was almost like, well, as it says in the cover, it's a manual for design and gives you a step-by-step approach.

[00:06:51] And it tackled issues that were very much prevalent in 1985, even still now in many cases.

[00:07:00] But however, it did not really talk much about linking with green thinking.

[00:07:07] So what our intention really was, is how can we link these two systems together?

[00:07:19] And in a way, the idea was to make sure that the available knowledge that is out there,

[00:07:28] again, to be honest, there's tons of knowledge that exists out there in terms of landscape ecology,

[00:07:34] in terms of almost like very scientific knowledge that is not much of use to any lay person

[00:07:46] who are also interested in, you know, coming from design background.

[00:07:50] So what our intention really was, is to take that sort of knowledge and package it in a way

[00:08:00] that is understandable by a wide range of people who can use that information in their own disciplines.

[00:08:12] And, you know, that was one of, I would say, and that approach applied to other sort of, you know,

[00:08:18] morphological layers as, you know, Parachi was mentioning earlier in terms of different systems,

[00:08:23] which makes it multidisciplinary.

[00:08:25] So one of the main sort of, our role was to understand what exists out there

[00:08:31] and how can we package it in such a way that would be made useful to people in their disciplines

[00:08:42] and then together allows us to create a common language, which we can therefore have a discourse.

[00:08:51] It's really interesting.

[00:08:52] It seems like you've, you've, you said you've worked on it, you know, worked on it for over a decade,

[00:08:55] but it's really interesting that the release of it has sort of coincided with biodiversity net gain

[00:09:00] and, you know, ecology and landscape coming right to the forefront of planning and design in the UK, at least.

[00:09:07] So that's, I don't know if that was by design or just by a lucky coincidence,

[00:09:11] but it's something I've heard speaking to people in practice is that,

[00:09:16] in particular around biodiversity net gain, which is a very technical exercise,

[00:09:21] designers aren't ecologists and ecologists aren't designers.

[00:09:23] And there's a need for those sort of skills to be integrated,

[00:09:26] to actually deliver this kind of thing in a, in a, in an appropriate way and in the most effective way.

[00:09:31] So it sounds like this book is coming along right at the, right at the right time.

[00:09:35] Who do you think is the audience for it?

[00:09:40] I think we would want people from a wide range of professional backgrounds to be the audience.

[00:09:50] I mean, one of the main, you know, if we think about what do we hope to achieve from the book,

[00:09:56] one of the things that we hope to achieve from the book is to further develop this common understanding

[00:10:02] of how settlements work as ecosystems, places are ecosystems.

[00:10:06] And like you rightly said, Ross, and like Soham was saying as well, ecologists are not designers.

[00:10:12] Designers are not ecologists, but you need to have a language where you can speak each other,

[00:10:17] where you can understand each other's profession and how that works,

[00:10:20] but also meaningfully communicate with each other about what matters.

[00:10:25] And that happens at different scales of design.

[00:10:29] So unless we have a basic understanding of ecology and how the study of ecology gets entwined into the places we design,

[00:10:38] how will we know what is the right stage to involve that input?

[00:10:42] So it, and this is the same for transport.

[00:10:45] This is the same for, you know, town planners and, you know,

[00:10:50] sort of same for architects, same for engineers, same for infrastructure specialists.

[00:10:58] So definitely we would like to engage as wide an audience.

[00:11:02] I mean, at the end of the day, everyone shares one common goal,

[00:11:06] which is the goal for survival and the goal for, you know,

[00:11:09] going towards an inching towards a greener future.

[00:11:11] So I think that would be something that we definitely hope to achieve from the book.

[00:11:19] Yeah, surely. I mean, if I may add,

[00:11:24] our definite aim was the way it is written or when we were writing it,

[00:11:33] like, you know, writing the text, but also the visuals of it.

[00:11:37] The intent was we make it as simple as possible.

[00:11:42] That would be graspable for literally anyone because this is a subject that concerns everyone.

[00:11:49] You know, we all experience built environments,

[00:11:52] whether or not we've studied it or working in that discipline.

[00:11:57] And currently the way, the direction it's going,

[00:12:03] a bit of a caution for really for everyone.

[00:12:06] So therefore makes more, gives more reason for everyone to understand what it is

[00:12:12] and what we can or should do about it.

[00:12:16] So yes, it's, it's in, in some ways it, it might be a,

[00:12:21] it is, it can be a technical book, which we,

[00:12:24] I personally do not see it as a very technical book.

[00:12:27] It does have references to different sort of specifications.

[00:12:33] If one gets really interested,

[00:12:36] they can open up the references of the bibliography and read about,

[00:12:41] you know, different links about, of different knowledge systems.

[00:12:46] But our main focus was to create a narrative really,

[00:12:51] which we think is the most important offer of the book itself,

[00:12:59] is to create that strong narrative that could reach everyone.

[00:13:08] And, you know, creates that question that the built environment that we live in,

[00:13:15] is it the way it should be?

[00:13:17] If not, how can we make it better?

[00:13:20] And it was, that was the main mission of, you know,

[00:13:25] of writing this book really.

[00:13:26] And therefore the audience can be everyone or anyone who is interested

[00:13:32] with issues concerning built environment,

[00:13:34] which is affecting everyone really.

[00:13:37] And equally, I think just adding to the point about audience,

[00:13:40] I think we are also extremely keen that the book engages with

[00:13:48] people who are involved in the built environment and the construction industry,

[00:13:53] but are not essentially designers.

[00:13:54] So for example, developers, for example, landowners,

[00:13:59] who are interested in transforming the future of their sites,

[00:14:05] for example, local planning authorities, you know, politicians,

[00:14:08] who eventually have the power, so as to speak,

[00:14:14] to enable good design.

[00:14:16] I think that is absolutely critical.

[00:14:20] So knowing good design is one thing,

[00:14:22] but enabling an environment in which good design can flourish

[00:14:27] is equally important, if not more.

[00:14:30] So I think in terms of audience,

[00:14:33] we would really like to engage with both.

[00:14:35] The professional side, you know, the student side as well,

[00:14:39] because eventually what we learn comes from academia.

[00:14:42] And historically, traditionally,

[00:14:44] academia has been quite siloed, you know,

[00:14:47] transport doing their own course and landscape doing their own course.

[00:14:50] And there are not very many courses which actually join up these disciplines.

[00:14:55] So we hope that this is a versatile book,

[00:14:59] which can, you know,

[00:15:01] which a variety of audiences can relate to from their perspectives.

[00:15:05] Yeah, that's great.

[00:15:07] I think we should get into a bit of the topics

[00:15:11] and the content of the book would be interesting.

[00:15:14] I think, you know, people really need to go out and see it.

[00:15:16] And it's quite, you know,

[00:15:17] it's very well illustrated and everything.

[00:15:19] But it'd be great to hear from you, I guess,

[00:15:21] some of the details of it.

[00:15:22] And in particular, this idea,

[00:15:24] maybe we can start with this idea of grounding design

[00:15:27] in a deeper understanding of natural systems

[00:15:29] and what that means.

[00:15:32] Okay, grounding design in natural systems.

[00:15:36] If you ask me in one sentence,

[00:15:38] it's absolutely critical and non-negotiable for our futures.

[00:15:42] But the question is, how do you do that?

[00:15:45] Like, for example, if I imagine myself to be,

[00:15:47] you know, whether a student or an urban designer on the desk,

[00:15:50] or imagine myself to be a planner wanting to make positive change

[00:15:53] in my community, in my neighborhood,

[00:15:55] or imagine to be a landowner,

[00:15:57] you know, interested in landscape-led design and master planning,

[00:16:01] how would they relate to,

[00:16:04] or how should they understand or approach,

[00:16:06] or perhaps want to approach,

[00:16:08] grounding design in natural systems?

[00:16:11] So, like to me,

[00:16:15] when things are laid out in a stepped process,

[00:16:19] or, you know,

[00:16:20] if there is something that provides you a roadmap

[00:16:22] of how to understand something

[00:16:25] you're not very well versed with,

[00:16:27] that's always more helpful.

[00:16:28] So, that is how we approach,

[00:16:30] because when we started this book 10 years ago,

[00:16:33] we were,

[00:16:33] we did not know as much about landscape ecology

[00:16:36] as we probably learned in the course.

[00:16:39] Now, having said that,

[00:16:41] I'm not trying to say it takes a decade to learn,

[00:16:43] that's the reason why we,

[00:16:44] why we put together the book,

[00:16:46] so it doesn't take people,

[00:16:47] you know,

[00:16:48] the same amount of time.

[00:16:49] But,

[00:16:51] coming back to the stepped approach,

[00:16:53] I think is really important,

[00:16:56] because you cannot,

[00:16:58] so for example,

[00:16:59] starting from topography and landform,

[00:17:01] everything emerges from there.

[00:17:03] How your site relates to topography, landform,

[00:17:05] how is it oriented?

[00:17:08] That is intrinsically linked to how drainage works.

[00:17:12] So, you can't really superimpose,

[00:17:15] if we are thinking about,

[00:17:16] you know,

[00:17:17] natural environments,

[00:17:18] natural systems,

[00:17:19] working with gravity fed drainage systems,

[00:17:22] and sustainability,

[00:17:23] we need to design sites in a way

[00:17:26] that are least resource intensive.

[00:17:28] And when we say resource intensive,

[00:17:30] we mean not just resource for construction,

[00:17:32] but also for future maintenance and management.

[00:17:34] So,

[00:17:36] working with what exists,

[00:17:38] is extremely important,

[00:17:39] because you're really saving up,

[00:17:41] both immediate implementation,

[00:17:44] as well as future.

[00:17:46] Now,

[00:17:46] the blue system,

[00:17:47] is intrinsically linked with the green system,

[00:17:50] because without water,

[00:17:52] you wouldn't,

[00:17:52] you wouldn't have plants,

[00:17:54] and you wouldn't have a green ecosystem,

[00:17:56] you wouldn't have,

[00:17:58] that would it flourish.

[00:17:59] So,

[00:18:00] depending on where and how your water,

[00:18:03] is,

[00:18:04] you know,

[00:18:05] kind of organized on your site,

[00:18:07] or laid out,

[00:18:08] so as to speak,

[00:18:09] that needs to have a clear relationship,

[00:18:11] with how your green spaces are functioning.

[00:18:13] There is also the aspect about,

[00:18:15] you know,

[00:18:16] when we think of cities,

[00:18:17] yes,

[00:18:19] it relating with natural systems,

[00:18:20] and really working with natural systems,

[00:18:22] is important.

[00:18:23] But,

[00:18:23] how do we,

[00:18:25] and that is what sustainable development,

[00:18:29] you know,

[00:18:29] as a short definition would be,

[00:18:32] so that it doesn't consume resources,

[00:18:34] beyond a degree,

[00:18:36] that it can replenish.

[00:18:37] However,

[00:18:38] to achieve that,

[00:18:39] you also need to have awareness,

[00:18:41] education,

[00:18:42] about what are the benefits,

[00:18:44] that natural systems are giving us.

[00:18:46] So,

[00:18:46] the understanding around ecosystem services,

[00:18:49] that eventually,

[00:18:49] it is for the benefit of our race,

[00:18:51] on the planet,

[00:18:53] and,

[00:18:53] and also how cities can help that,

[00:18:57] as part of everyday life.

[00:18:58] So,

[00:18:59] you know,

[00:18:59] there's a reason why,

[00:19:00] when people want serenity,

[00:19:01] or they want solace,

[00:19:03] they go to a place,

[00:19:04] which is possibly near water,

[00:19:06] you know,

[00:19:06] or like a woodland.

[00:19:08] So,

[00:19:09] cities can really become,

[00:19:11] social learning systems,

[00:19:13] you know,

[00:19:13] when we start to really integrate,

[00:19:15] nature,

[00:19:17] into place making,

[00:19:19] it sort of really becomes,

[00:19:20] a tool for learning as well,

[00:19:23] and sort of a tool for health,

[00:19:24] a tool for well-being.

[00:19:26] So,

[00:19:26] I think to me,

[00:19:27] that is what it means,

[00:19:29] by kind of grounding,

[00:19:30] design,

[00:19:30] in a deeper understanding,

[00:19:31] of natural systems.

[00:19:32] So,

[00:19:32] as much as,

[00:19:33] we want to do that,

[00:19:35] and it is extremely technical,

[00:19:37] because,

[00:19:38] you know,

[00:19:39] like,

[00:19:39] species,

[00:19:40] don't travel,

[00:19:41] in any which way,

[00:19:42] you know,

[00:19:45] because of certain reasons,

[00:19:46] it's extremely technical,

[00:19:48] extremely scientific,

[00:19:49] and right from the early design stages,

[00:19:52] no matter how strategic,

[00:19:53] and how conceptual,

[00:19:54] it is,

[00:19:54] it is important to have,

[00:19:56] that understanding,

[00:19:57] of,

[00:19:58] you know,

[00:19:58] the technical inputs,

[00:19:59] that might be required,

[00:20:01] and a very basic knowledge,

[00:20:02] so that we can design,

[00:20:03] to future proof,

[00:20:05] and we're not doing anything,

[00:20:07] that might need to be,

[00:20:08] undone,

[00:20:09] from a natural systems perspective,

[00:20:11] an integration of natural systems perspective,

[00:20:13] but,

[00:20:14] I guess that would be,

[00:20:16] my angle on it.

[00:20:19] Probably a very minor addition to that,

[00:20:21] Prachi,

[00:20:21] quite awesome answer to that.

[00:20:25] It's almost,

[00:20:27] I think,

[00:20:28] one,

[00:20:29] another way to put it,

[00:20:30] would be,

[00:20:31] thinking,

[00:20:33] beyond human centric,

[00:20:37] even,

[00:20:38] you know,

[00:20:38] a very small intervention,

[00:20:40] like,

[00:20:41] toy tunnels,

[00:20:43] or,

[00:20:43] bridge,

[00:20:44] for hedgehogs,

[00:20:45] for hedgehogs,

[00:20:47] might,

[00:20:47] have,

[00:20:48] its place now,

[00:20:50] but,

[00:20:52] even less than,

[00:20:53] five years ago,

[00:20:54] some people would,

[00:20:55] think,

[00:20:57] that's a joke,

[00:20:59] and,

[00:21:00] you know,

[00:21:00] very sadly,

[00:21:02] but,

[00:21:02] I,

[00:21:03] you know,

[00:21:03] we have come across,

[00:21:05] such situations,

[00:21:06] why would you have a tunnel for a little toad,

[00:21:10] a developer is not going to pay for that,

[00:21:13] I mean,

[00:21:13] don't,

[00:21:14] don't mind that toads,

[00:21:16] people would not even pay for planting trees,

[00:21:19] beyond their redline boundary,

[00:21:22] because they didn't think it would bring any monetary benefits,

[00:21:29] for the development that they're responsible for,

[00:21:34] so I think we have probably moved from that situation,

[00:21:39] at least,

[00:21:40] even if it's a wee bit,

[00:21:42] but,

[00:21:44] I suppose,

[00:21:46] the,

[00:21:47] the idea of this book is to push that agenda,

[00:21:50] more and more,

[00:21:51] so that,

[00:21:53] we can,

[00:21:55] put more,

[00:21:57] value,

[00:21:58] on,

[00:21:58] the idea of ecosystem services,

[00:22:00] that,

[00:22:01] the nature,

[00:22:02] is for us,

[00:22:03] and we are for,

[00:22:04] for it,

[00:22:06] yeah.

[00:22:07] Sorry,

[00:22:07] just to add there,

[00:22:09] because what Soom was saying,

[00:22:10] was really interesting,

[00:22:11] I mean,

[00:22:11] the other angle about,

[00:22:15] grounding in natural systems,

[00:22:17] is about,

[00:22:18] the understanding around,

[00:22:19] multi-scalarity,

[00:22:20] of landscape,

[00:22:21] and how that can be integrated in design,

[00:22:23] so when we talk about landscape,

[00:22:25] it's not just about green corridors,

[00:22:26] it's not just about,

[00:22:27] sustainable urban drainage,

[00:22:28] it is also about,

[00:22:30] you know,

[00:22:30] like how can we push boundaries,

[00:22:31] how can we move beyond,

[00:22:33] sustainable urban drainage,

[00:22:34] and think about grey water,

[00:22:35] black water recycling,

[00:22:36] it is also about materials,

[00:22:38] how do we push towards,

[00:22:40] more natural materials,

[00:22:41] in,

[00:22:41] in the buildings,

[00:22:43] so it is right from,

[00:22:44] what is the,

[00:22:45] what could be,

[00:22:46] the most sort of,

[00:22:48] natural,

[00:22:49] nature,

[00:22:49] oriented solution,

[00:22:51] of designing,

[00:22:52] a home,

[00:22:54] to,

[00:22:54] designing,

[00:22:55] a whole city,

[00:22:57] it might even be something,

[00:22:58] as small as designing,

[00:22:59] a street furniture,

[00:23:00] you know,

[00:23:01] which is about using,

[00:23:01] of recycled materials,

[00:23:03] using,

[00:23:04] sort of,

[00:23:05] local labour,

[00:23:05] and so on,

[00:23:06] and so forth,

[00:23:07] so it is very much,

[00:23:08] multi-scaler,

[00:23:10] so I think,

[00:23:11] there is also a perception,

[00:23:12] when we talk about landscape,

[00:23:13] it's those green layers,

[00:23:14] and blue layers,

[00:23:15] but it is,

[00:23:16] beyond that,

[00:23:17] it is also about,

[00:23:18] how we design homes,

[00:23:19] according to the orientation,

[00:23:21] the materials we use,

[00:23:24] you know,

[00:23:24] how do we create,

[00:23:25] zero impact,

[00:23:26] it's not just,

[00:23:27] net zero carbon,

[00:23:28] it is,

[00:23:29] sort of,

[00:23:29] the whole life cycle,

[00:23:30] approach,

[00:23:31] of,

[00:23:31] sort of,

[00:23:32] zero impact on,

[00:23:35] of any,

[00:23:35] place,

[00:23:37] in,

[00:23:38] you know,

[00:23:38] on its wider context,

[00:23:40] and how can we achieve that?

[00:23:42] Hmm,

[00:23:43] I'm getting a real sense of the,

[00:23:44] the multi-scaler aspect of this,

[00:23:46] you know,

[00:23:46] sort of,

[00:23:47] jumping from,

[00:23:48] thinking about topography,

[00:23:49] and,

[00:23:50] and water flows,

[00:23:51] right down to,

[00:23:51] sort of,

[00:23:52] the experience,

[00:23:52] experiential elements,

[00:23:54] of particular spaces,

[00:23:55] and,

[00:23:55] and the lives of particular species,

[00:23:59] and,

[00:23:59] and I think it's,

[00:23:59] it's,

[00:24:02] it's,

[00:24:02] sort of,

[00:24:05] there are tactics for designing,

[00:24:07] things like this,

[00:24:08] but there's also,

[00:24:09] as you're saying,

[00:24:10] this real need to change,

[00:24:11] the sort of paradigm,

[00:24:12] of what we think development should be,

[00:24:14] and,

[00:24:15] and look like,

[00:24:15] and how it should interact with,

[00:24:16] with natural systems,

[00:24:17] so that,

[00:24:18] it sounds like the book is,

[00:24:19] sort of,

[00:24:19] covering both of those layers.

[00:24:23] Yeah,

[00:24:24] sure,

[00:24:26] because,

[00:24:26] it is,

[00:24:27] one of,

[00:24:28] you know,

[00:24:29] right at the introduction,

[00:24:30] we,

[00:24:30] we,

[00:24:30] we bring this idea,

[00:24:32] you know,

[00:24:32] how the structure of the book is laid out,

[00:24:34] and,

[00:24:35] it is based on,

[00:24:37] again,

[00:24:37] just,

[00:24:37] you know,

[00:24:38] what Prati mentioned earlier,

[00:24:39] it is based on different,

[00:24:41] morphological layers,

[00:24:42] by that,

[00:24:43] which,

[00:24:43] we mean the elements that make up,

[00:24:45] our built environment,

[00:24:47] but also,

[00:24:48] each morphology,

[00:24:49] each morphology has its own scale,

[00:24:51] from big to the small,

[00:24:53] sort of,

[00:24:53] for example,

[00:24:54] from the forest,

[00:24:55] to,

[00:24:55] to,

[00:24:55] to the,

[00:24:55] sort of,

[00:24:57] flower,

[00:24:58] and each layer has,

[00:24:59] that sort of,

[00:25:00] scalarity,

[00:25:02] and,

[00:25:02] so it's almost like,

[00:25:04] you know,

[00:25:04] having an x-axis,

[00:25:05] and a y-axis,

[00:25:09] you know,

[00:25:09] throughout the book,

[00:25:11] and,

[00:25:12] and the last chapter,

[00:25:13] sort of,

[00:25:14] brings them all together,

[00:25:15] in terms of how you,

[00:25:17] you know,

[00:25:19] experience it,

[00:25:20] that creates an atmosphere,

[00:25:21] which,

[00:25:22] which,

[00:25:23] although it,

[00:25:23] you know,

[00:25:24] it does vary from one person,

[00:25:25] to person's experiences,

[00:25:27] but,

[00:25:27] overall,

[00:25:30] you know,

[00:25:30] there is a shared,

[00:25:33] feeling of,

[00:25:34] of an atmosphere,

[00:25:35] which we are interested in,

[00:25:38] and,

[00:25:40] to create,

[00:25:42] that,

[00:25:43] sort of,

[00:25:44] positive atmosphere,

[00:25:45] we need,

[00:25:46] to really think,

[00:25:47] from,

[00:25:48] across all scales,

[00:25:50] because,

[00:25:51] that does,

[00:25:52] just,

[00:25:52] does not happen,

[00:25:53] within,

[00:25:54] you know,

[00:25:54] one street,

[00:25:55] or a little,

[00:25:56] open space,

[00:25:58] but that open space,

[00:25:59] is the way it is,

[00:26:00] because,

[00:26:01] the way it is linked,

[00:26:03] with the,

[00:26:03] wider system,

[00:26:06] so,

[00:26:07] the book,

[00:26:09] tries to,

[00:26:10] emphasize on,

[00:26:12] on that,

[00:26:13] principle,

[00:26:15] and,

[00:26:15] therefore,

[00:26:17] it requires,

[00:26:19] so,

[00:26:19] to create that,

[00:26:20] amazing atmosphere,

[00:26:22] it really is,

[00:26:23] a very multidisciplinary approach,

[00:26:25] because,

[00:26:25] it can't be,

[00:26:26] just,

[00:26:27] be,

[00:26:28] designed by a landscape architect,

[00:26:31] or,

[00:26:31] you know,

[00:26:33] or,

[00:26:34] an architect,

[00:26:34] or an urban designer,

[00:26:35] it needs inputs,

[00:26:36] from,

[00:26:37] you know,

[00:26:37] a water,

[00:26:40] engineer,

[00:26:40] from,

[00:26:41] from M&E,

[00:26:42] I suppose,

[00:26:43] then,

[00:26:44] from,

[00:26:44] sort of,

[00:26:45] land surveyor,

[00:26:47] and,

[00:26:49] arboriculturist,

[00:26:50] all sorts,

[00:26:50] even artists,

[00:26:53] so,

[00:26:55] in,

[00:26:55] in,

[00:26:56] in many ways,

[00:26:56] we used to call,

[00:26:57] urban designers,

[00:26:59] now,

[00:26:59] we call,

[00:27:00] you know,

[00:27:01] we're trying to,

[00:27:01] more move towards,

[00:27:02] the idea of,

[00:27:03] settlement design,

[00:27:05] as a performance art,

[00:27:07] so,

[00:27:08] it is,

[00:27:09] it is an art,

[00:27:10] that,

[00:27:10] is done in action,

[00:27:15] with,

[00:27:15] the help of,

[00:27:16] different people,

[00:27:18] coming at,

[00:27:19] different stages,

[00:27:20] so,

[00:27:20] it is an act,

[00:27:21] but,

[00:27:22] it really is,

[00:27:24] otherwise,

[00:27:25] otherwise,

[00:27:26] we,

[00:27:26] would,

[00:27:28] not have,

[00:27:29] we may create,

[00:27:31] a successful,

[00:27:32] space,

[00:27:33] only for few,

[00:27:35] years,

[00:27:36] maybe,

[00:27:36] but then,

[00:27:37] it does not ensure,

[00:27:38] its resilience,

[00:27:39] unless,

[00:27:39] it is,

[00:27:41] linked with,

[00:27:42] the wider system,

[00:27:43] to make it,

[00:27:45] function,

[00:27:46] for years to come.

[00:27:47] Yeah,

[00:27:48] I suppose,

[00:27:49] what Soham,

[00:27:49] is really underlining,

[00:27:50] is the,

[00:27:52] the value of having,

[00:27:54] a structured approach,

[00:27:55] to design,

[00:27:56] if you want to,

[00:27:57] ground design,

[00:27:58] in a deeper understanding,

[00:27:59] of natural systems,

[00:28:01] then it is,

[00:28:02] absolutely critical,

[00:28:03] that the way,

[00:28:04] that the design program,

[00:28:06] or the project program,

[00:28:07] is structured,

[00:28:08] in a certain way,

[00:28:10] so that you are able to,

[00:28:11] allow the inputs,

[00:28:13] of specific disciplines,

[00:28:15] and inputs,

[00:28:17] according to,

[00:28:18] a design process,

[00:28:20] that will support,

[00:28:22] designing with nature,

[00:28:23] and it is something,

[00:28:25] that does,

[00:28:26] you know,

[00:28:27] it's something,

[00:28:28] that we can do better,

[00:28:29] I think,

[00:28:29] as an industry,

[00:28:32] yeah.

[00:28:33] Yeah,

[00:28:33] in fact,

[00:28:34] you know,

[00:28:34] right at that point,

[00:28:35] I would like to add,

[00:28:37] another underpinning,

[00:28:38] concept of our book,

[00:28:40] has been,

[00:28:41] the idea of,

[00:28:42] deep structure,

[00:28:43] and surface order,

[00:28:45] and,

[00:28:46] you know,

[00:28:47] by that,

[00:28:47] we mean,

[00:28:48] there's some,

[00:28:50] there is a,

[00:28:51] there is an order,

[00:28:52] of things,

[00:28:55] which,

[00:28:56] are more fundamental,

[00:28:58] than,

[00:28:58] than the others,

[00:29:00] say for example,

[00:29:02] the topography,

[00:29:03] and the water system,

[00:29:06] and,

[00:29:06] along with them,

[00:29:07] the green system,

[00:29:08] they take a very,

[00:29:09] very long time,

[00:29:10] to establish,

[00:29:12] and they last,

[00:29:13] very,

[00:29:13] very long,

[00:29:14] you know,

[00:29:14] amount of time,

[00:29:15] and if we destroy them,

[00:29:17] it will take,

[00:29:18] huge amount of energy,

[00:29:19] and time,

[00:29:20] to recover.

[00:29:22] So,

[00:29:22] in any sort of,

[00:29:23] design decisions we do,

[00:29:25] we make sure,

[00:29:25] that things that last,

[00:29:27] longest,

[00:29:29] take,

[00:29:30] priority,

[00:29:30] in terms of,

[00:29:31] our design decision making,

[00:29:33] and then,

[00:29:34] the others,

[00:29:35] can follow,

[00:29:37] because,

[00:29:38] you know,

[00:29:38] they're also,

[00:29:39] interlinked,

[00:29:40] in terms of,

[00:29:40] how they are,

[00:29:42] you know,

[00:29:42] how they interact,

[00:29:43] with each other,

[00:29:44] say for example,

[00:29:45] if we change,

[00:29:46] the street system,

[00:29:48] the building,

[00:29:49] sitting on that street,

[00:29:49] would also disappear,

[00:29:51] but if we,

[00:29:52] you know,

[00:29:53] demolish a building,

[00:29:54] tomorrow,

[00:29:54] the street,

[00:29:55] would still carry on,

[00:29:57] you know,

[00:29:58] will be still there,

[00:29:59] so,

[00:30:00] it is quite important,

[00:30:02] to sort of,

[00:30:03] understand this idea,

[00:30:04] of,

[00:30:05] what is a deep structure,

[00:30:07] and,

[00:30:08] then what is the surface order,

[00:30:10] and how they're,

[00:30:11] interlinked,

[00:30:12] and therefore,

[00:30:14] you know,

[00:30:14] again,

[00:30:14] creation of that atmosphere,

[00:30:17] is very much,

[00:30:20] underpinned,

[00:30:21] by these,

[00:30:22] deeper structures,

[00:30:24] being in place,

[00:30:26] to ensure,

[00:30:27] its long-term,

[00:30:29] resilience.

[00:30:31] That's,

[00:30:31] that's super interesting,

[00:30:32] and I think,

[00:30:33] you know,

[00:30:33] this also has been,

[00:30:34] the case,

[00:30:35] over the last,

[00:30:36] well,

[00:30:37] hundred years,

[00:30:37] in particularly,

[00:30:38] of those,

[00:30:40] quicker turnover,

[00:30:42] aspects,

[00:30:43] like buildings and streets,

[00:30:44] massively disrupting,

[00:30:45] the lower,

[00:30:46] turnover aspects,

[00:30:47] like hydrology,

[00:30:49] and landform,

[00:30:50] and the way that,

[00:30:50] you know,

[00:30:50] we've,

[00:30:51] we've constructed,

[00:30:52] a lot of urban environments,

[00:30:53] to be very fragile,

[00:30:55] to things like flooding,

[00:30:56] because we haven't worked,

[00:30:57] with water,

[00:30:57] and now they're having,

[00:30:58] to be retrofitted,

[00:30:59] to put in more,

[00:31:01] more naturalized river systems,

[00:31:02] or drainage,

[00:31:04] and that kind of thing.

[00:31:05] Do you think,

[00:31:06] the book can also speak,

[00:31:07] to retrofit,

[00:31:09] as well as new,

[00:31:10] new development?

[00:31:12] Yes,

[00:31:13] I believe,

[00:31:15] it can,

[00:31:16] because,

[00:31:17] we do,

[00:31:18] although it's,

[00:31:19] a brief discussion,

[00:31:20] but there is a discussion,

[00:31:21] included in chapter one,

[00:31:23] about how,

[00:31:25] you know,

[00:31:25] in the past decades,

[00:31:27] we have,

[00:31:28] damaged a lot of strategic,

[00:31:30] networks of green,

[00:31:31] and blue infrastructure.

[00:31:33] Now,

[00:31:34] retrofitting,

[00:31:35] is an expensive undertaking,

[00:31:38] and,

[00:31:38] it is something,

[00:31:39] that can only happen,

[00:31:41] with strong political will,

[00:31:44] and a vision,

[00:31:46] and,

[00:31:47] it's not that,

[00:31:48] there are not examples,

[00:31:50] there are,

[00:31:50] we've also included,

[00:31:51] some in the book,

[00:31:52] but,

[00:31:54] yes,

[00:31:54] there are examples,

[00:31:55] in Boston,

[00:31:56] in Seoul,

[00:31:56] where,

[00:31:57] massive infrastructure projects,

[00:31:59] in particular motorways,

[00:32:01] have been,

[00:32:02] totally restructured,

[00:32:04] in order to,

[00:32:05] retrofit,

[00:32:06] what we say,

[00:32:06] as hidden streams,

[00:32:07] or hidden rivers,

[00:32:09] which were,

[00:32:10] disconnected,

[00:32:11] or fragmented,

[00:32:13] because of,

[00:32:15] development,

[00:32:15] infrastructure development.

[00:32:16] Then,

[00:32:17] there are more,

[00:32:18] smaller scale examples,

[00:32:20] from cities,

[00:32:20] like,

[00:32:21] for instance,

[00:32:22] Europe,

[00:32:22] in particular,

[00:32:23] is good at that,

[00:32:24] for example,

[00:32:25] Copenhagen,

[00:32:26] Holland,

[00:32:26] for instance,

[00:32:27] as well,

[00:32:28] where,

[00:32:28] they take a very long-term view,

[00:32:31] on how gradually,

[00:32:32] incrementally,

[00:32:33] you retrofit.

[00:32:34] So,

[00:32:35] it is not about,

[00:32:35] always,

[00:32:36] not necessarily,

[00:32:37] about big moves,

[00:32:39] but it is about,

[00:32:40] a very strategic,

[00:32:41] integrated,

[00:32:42] spatial planning,

[00:32:43] is,

[00:32:44] where,

[00:32:45] it becomes really important,

[00:32:46] because,

[00:32:46] transport,

[00:32:47] and landscape,

[00:32:48] becomes so interlinked,

[00:32:49] when it comes to,

[00:32:50] retrofitting,

[00:32:51] because people are using,

[00:32:52] the place,

[00:32:53] it's not something,

[00:32:54] you're designing from scratch,

[00:32:55] people are using the space,

[00:32:56] they are,

[00:32:57] you know,

[00:32:57] there is movement there,

[00:32:59] ecology is there,

[00:33:00] so the question is,

[00:33:01] how,

[00:33:02] if you want to retrofit,

[00:33:03] natural systems,

[00:33:04] the aim is always,

[00:33:05] how do you strengthen ecology,

[00:33:06] how do you enhance BNG,

[00:33:08] how do you increase,

[00:33:09] the capacity of nature,

[00:33:10] to provide,

[00:33:10] provisioning,

[00:33:11] regulating,

[00:33:12] cultural services,

[00:33:13] which are the key,

[00:33:13] ecosystem services,

[00:33:15] and,

[00:33:16] for that to happen,

[00:33:17] it is a,

[00:33:17] you know,

[00:33:18] it is sort of a,

[00:33:18] surgical approach,

[00:33:19] so depending,

[00:33:20] on what is needed,

[00:33:22] for the situation,

[00:33:24] I guess,

[00:33:25] we hope,

[00:33:26] that the book sort of,

[00:33:27] because what we do in the book,

[00:33:28] is that in each chapter,

[00:33:30] which goes from layer to layer,

[00:33:32] there are impact,

[00:33:33] what we call relational parameters,

[00:33:35] so those parameters,

[00:33:36] are principles,

[00:33:37] that relate one layer,

[00:33:38] to the other,

[00:33:39] or one subsystem,

[00:33:40] or one morphological layer,

[00:33:42] to the other,

[00:33:43] and,

[00:33:44] it is open,

[00:33:45] for creative interpretation,

[00:33:47] in the end,

[00:33:47] because there are,

[00:33:48] there are infinite number,

[00:33:50] of design scenarios,

[00:33:51] and every design situation,

[00:33:53] is unique,

[00:33:54] which is why,

[00:33:54] design is creative work,

[00:33:57] so,

[00:33:58] you know,

[00:33:58] it's impossible to,

[00:34:00] you know,

[00:34:00] sort of say,

[00:34:01] give you an answer that,

[00:34:02] yes,

[00:34:02] we deal with retrofit,

[00:34:03] in our book,

[00:34:04] because,

[00:34:04] it's a,

[00:34:05] it's a yes and a no,

[00:34:06] because yes,

[00:34:06] for sure,

[00:34:07] we are not dealing with,

[00:34:07] all the scenarios,

[00:34:08] which might be possible,

[00:34:09] but hopefully,

[00:34:10] we give,

[00:34:11] the understanding,

[00:34:13] using which,

[00:34:14] someone might be able,

[00:34:15] to apply that,

[00:34:16] knowledge,

[00:34:18] enhance their own knowledge,

[00:34:20] to think what is relevant,

[00:34:21] for their situation,

[00:34:22] and their scenario,

[00:34:23] and then apply it accordingly,

[00:34:25] so,

[00:34:26] yeah.

[00:34:27] Yeah,

[00:34:28] in many ways,

[00:34:29] the principles of,

[00:34:31] I think the foundational principles,

[00:34:32] of retrofit,

[00:34:33] should still,

[00:34:34] follow,

[00:34:36] what,

[00:34:37] you know,

[00:34:37] how a natural water cycle is,

[00:34:39] and try and,

[00:34:40] try and get to,

[00:34:41] as close,

[00:34:43] to it as possible,

[00:34:45] but,

[00:34:46] you know,

[00:34:47] as Prachi was just mentioning,

[00:34:49] the details of it,

[00:34:51] are very,

[00:34:51] very context specific,

[00:34:55] and in many cases,

[00:34:56] it,

[00:34:57] you know,

[00:34:57] with,

[00:34:57] well may need,

[00:35:00] an engineered approach,

[00:35:02] to get close to it,

[00:35:03] or to mimic it,

[00:35:04] or maybe create a new,

[00:35:05] new terrain,

[00:35:06] terrain,

[00:35:08] because,

[00:35:09] with the,

[00:35:10] what it used to exist,

[00:35:12] has been lost,

[00:35:13] so,

[00:35:16] as long as,

[00:35:18] you know,

[00:35:18] which we try,

[00:35:20] you know,

[00:35:20] and mention in the book,

[00:35:21] is,

[00:35:22] to come,

[00:35:23] to say,

[00:35:24] you know,

[00:35:25] with clarity,

[00:35:26] what,

[00:35:26] and in the most simple way,

[00:35:28] what is a natural water cycle,

[00:35:30] and that principle,

[00:35:32] should still,

[00:35:32] be valid,

[00:35:33] for any retrofit project.

[00:35:36] Yeah,

[00:35:37] yeah,

[00:35:37] that makes sense,

[00:35:38] and I think something,

[00:35:39] something you mentioned as well,

[00:35:40] around the,

[00:35:42] the experiential side of,

[00:35:43] of,

[00:35:44] of all of this,

[00:35:45] and a question I had,

[00:35:45] was something that I'm,

[00:35:47] very interested in,

[00:35:48] which is this,

[00:35:49] role of placemaking,

[00:35:51] as part of a wider sustainability,

[00:35:54] approach,

[00:35:55] and is there something you talk about in the book,

[00:35:57] and what's your,

[00:35:57] what are your thoughts on that?

[00:35:59] In my view,

[00:36:00] play,

[00:36:01] the role of placemaking in sustainability,

[00:36:03] is,

[00:36:04] absolutely linked,

[00:36:05] with the experiential value of a place.

[00:36:09] At the end of the day,

[00:36:11] places need to be something,

[00:36:13] that make you feel happy,

[00:36:15] and we believe,

[00:36:16] as a design practice,

[00:36:18] as professionals,

[00:36:20] and just as urbanist designers,

[00:36:24] is that places must be emotional,

[00:36:27] for people to form a bond,

[00:36:30] what we call,

[00:36:31] you know,

[00:36:32] it's,

[00:36:32] it's known in different phrases,

[00:36:33] sense of,

[00:36:34] you can call it sense of community,

[00:36:35] you can call it place identity,

[00:36:38] but,

[00:36:38] in the end,

[00:36:39] it is,

[00:36:41] it is a bond,

[00:36:42] that you form with a place,

[00:36:43] it is to do with your memory,

[00:36:46] of a place,

[00:36:47] and that is what placemaking,

[00:36:49] should support,

[00:36:50] is for,

[00:36:51] a person,

[00:36:52] an individual,

[00:36:52] a group of people,

[00:36:54] to be able to,

[00:36:55] create that bond,

[00:36:56] in a way that,

[00:36:58] you know,

[00:36:58] that makes the,

[00:36:59] recipient,

[00:37:00] or the person,

[00:37:01] who's experiencing that,

[00:37:02] feel that,

[00:37:02] okay,

[00:37:03] I am enjoying being in this place,

[00:37:05] you know,

[00:37:05] oh,

[00:37:05] I would love,

[00:37:06] you know,

[00:37:07] my walk is,

[00:37:08] I feel,

[00:37:10] de-stressed,

[00:37:11] when I take a short walk,

[00:37:12] around my neighborhood,

[00:37:14] the,

[00:37:14] the walk from my home,

[00:37:16] to my,

[00:37:17] the supermarket,

[00:37:19] is something,

[00:37:20] it is so pleasant,

[00:37:21] that I don't feel like driving,

[00:37:23] that is the role of placemaking,

[00:37:25] so,

[00:37:25] in sustainability,

[00:37:27] so sometimes,

[00:37:27] when we look at,

[00:37:29] for example,

[00:37:29] you know,

[00:37:30] a lot of literature,

[00:37:30] on sustainability,

[00:37:32] and it is all very relevant,

[00:37:34] and very useful,

[00:37:34] and very important,

[00:37:35] important,

[00:37:36] but there's always a risk,

[00:37:37] that it starts getting,

[00:37:40] too,

[00:37:41] technical,

[00:37:42] too number oriented,

[00:37:43] like,

[00:37:43] you know,

[00:37:44] too factual,

[00:37:45] and when that happens,

[00:37:47] then,

[00:37:48] sometimes,

[00:37:49] a person,

[00:37:50] who is not a designer,

[00:37:51] or not from that background,

[00:37:52] cannot relate sustainability,

[00:37:54] to,

[00:37:55] design,

[00:37:55] for us,

[00:37:56] it is all about,

[00:37:57] humanizing sustainability,

[00:37:59] so it is,

[00:38:00] about how design,

[00:38:01] can support,

[00:38:03] the feeling,

[00:38:05] that you are living,

[00:38:06] amidst nature,

[00:38:08] with nature,

[00:38:09] can support productivity,

[00:38:10] and well-being,

[00:38:12] I think,

[00:38:12] that for me,

[00:38:13] is the role of placemaking,

[00:38:15] in sustainability,

[00:38:16] sustainability,

[00:38:19] and,

[00:38:19] and I think,

[00:38:20] placemaking has that,

[00:38:21] has the power,

[00:38:22] to change perceptions,

[00:38:24] in many cases,

[00:38:26] where,

[00:38:27] you know,

[00:38:28] for example,

[00:38:29] people would think,

[00:38:30] driving,

[00:38:31] is the only way,

[00:38:32] to get about,

[00:38:33] from one place,

[00:38:33] to another,

[00:38:35] and walking,

[00:38:36] is not necessarily,

[00:38:37] your first choice,

[00:38:40] unless we create,

[00:38:42] a placemaking,

[00:38:43] a good placemaking,

[00:38:46] as an evidence,

[00:38:49] to change,

[00:38:50] the narrative,

[00:38:51] and the perception,

[00:38:52] of how the place,

[00:38:53] can be,

[00:38:53] it's very hard,

[00:38:54] to tell people,

[00:38:56] that you know,

[00:38:57] trust me,

[00:38:57] if you do this,

[00:38:58] this will work,

[00:39:00] and I,

[00:39:00] therefore I think,

[00:39:01] you know,

[00:39:02] any placemaking,

[00:39:03] projects that,

[00:39:05] are happening,

[00:39:06] or needs to happen,

[00:39:08] they,

[00:39:08] they should have a very,

[00:39:11] well-rounded brief,

[00:39:14] that,

[00:39:15] it's not just about,

[00:39:16] making a place,

[00:39:17] look pretty,

[00:39:18] but also,

[00:39:19] ticks all those boxes,

[00:39:22] of,

[00:39:23] how can you meet,

[00:39:25] how can you,

[00:39:26] meet the needs,

[00:39:27] of the community,

[00:39:28] of the people,

[00:39:29] within the means,

[00:39:30] of the planet,

[00:39:32] and that's why,

[00:39:33] it is beautiful,

[00:39:35] I think,

[00:39:36] unless,

[00:39:37] that is,

[00:39:39] portrayed,

[00:39:41] people are not,

[00:39:42] going to buy into,

[00:39:44] so-called,

[00:39:44] you know,

[00:39:45] into more,

[00:39:47] greener,

[00:39:47] resilient,

[00:39:48] ideas,

[00:39:51] because they,

[00:39:51] they are,

[00:39:52] most,

[00:39:53] most of them are okay,

[00:39:54] and not really okay,

[00:39:55] with change,

[00:39:56] very,

[00:39:57] you know,

[00:39:57] risk averse,

[00:39:58] ideas,

[00:40:00] yeah.

[00:40:01] I mean,

[00:40:02] if I,

[00:40:02] if I let out my geek side,

[00:40:04] a little bit,

[00:40:05] like any disease,

[00:40:06] in the human body,

[00:40:08] and I guess,

[00:40:09] you know,

[00:40:10] everyone is concerned,

[00:40:11] about their own health,

[00:40:13] you know,

[00:40:13] but any disease,

[00:40:14] in the human body,

[00:40:15] is linked to inflammation,

[00:40:17] that could be,

[00:40:18] a mental disease,

[00:40:19] it could be,

[00:40:20] a physical disease,

[00:40:21] and it is proven,

[00:40:22] through research,

[00:40:24] that nature,

[00:40:25] plays a big role,

[00:40:26] in reducing,

[00:40:28] inflammation,

[00:40:29] and increasing,

[00:40:29] immune function,

[00:40:30] of the body,

[00:40:31] so,

[00:40:32] when we,

[00:40:33] know,

[00:40:34] and like,

[00:40:34] doctors now,

[00:40:35] prescribe nature,

[00:40:36] for example.

[00:40:38] So,

[00:40:38] with this knowledge,

[00:40:40] you know,

[00:40:41] as professionals,

[00:40:42] within this industry,

[00:40:44] what that tells,

[00:40:46] us is,

[00:40:47] how should we,

[00:40:50] approach,

[00:40:51] place making,

[00:40:52] in a way,

[00:40:52] that can,

[00:40:53] increase the frequency,

[00:40:55] of our interaction,

[00:40:56] with nature,

[00:40:57] on a daily basis,

[00:40:59] as a,

[00:41:00] integral part,

[00:41:02] of everyday life,

[00:41:02] it's not something,

[00:41:03] you need to make an effort,

[00:41:05] to go out of your way,

[00:41:06] and do it,

[00:41:07] it is something,

[00:41:08] that should be,

[00:41:08] such a natural process,

[00:41:10] of doing everyday activity,

[00:41:12] that it doesn't feel,

[00:41:14] that you know,

[00:41:15] you're doing it,

[00:41:16] you know,

[00:41:16] sort of,

[00:41:17] for a special purpose,

[00:41:20] yeah.

[00:41:22] There's,

[00:41:23] there's something called,

[00:41:24] the streetlight effect,

[00:41:27] which is this idea,

[00:41:28] that,

[00:41:29] if you,

[00:41:30] basically,

[00:41:30] if you're,

[00:41:30] if you,

[00:41:31] if you lose your keys,

[00:41:32] on the street at night,

[00:41:33] the place you look,

[00:41:34] is under the streetlight,

[00:41:35] because that's where the light is,

[00:41:36] but it's not necessarily,

[00:41:37] where you lost your keys,

[00:41:39] and we do the same thing,

[00:41:40] in science,

[00:41:41] and in design,

[00:41:42] which is that,

[00:41:43] if,

[00:41:43] if we're looking to reduce,

[00:41:45] our carbon emissions,

[00:41:46] you look at the most obvious places,

[00:41:49] sources of carbon emissions,

[00:41:51] that are easiest to measure,

[00:41:52] basically,

[00:41:53] and I think this,

[00:41:54] this idea of placemaking,

[00:41:56] is,

[00:41:56] that's why it's so,

[00:41:58] important,

[00:41:58] as a sort of counter to that,

[00:42:00] because,

[00:42:00] you know,

[00:42:00] if you invest in some public art,

[00:42:02] and a really beautiful public square,

[00:42:04] and six benches,

[00:42:05] instead of one bench,

[00:42:06] I can't quantify,

[00:42:07] for you,

[00:42:08] what the reduction in,

[00:42:09] you know,

[00:42:10] emissions associated with that will be,

[00:42:12] but we sort of know intuitively,

[00:42:13] that it,

[00:42:14] it does play an important role,

[00:42:15] in creating a place,

[00:42:16] where people are likely,

[00:42:18] to make more sustainable choices,

[00:42:20] so I'm,

[00:42:21] yeah,

[00:42:21] I'm glad to hear you're sort of,

[00:42:23] forefronting that,

[00:42:24] it's sort of,

[00:42:25] it's quite an intangible thing,

[00:42:26] isn't it?

[00:42:26] It is,

[00:42:27] it is very,

[00:42:28] and sometimes,

[00:42:29] and actually,

[00:42:32] sort of,

[00:42:33] I guess the,

[00:42:33] the question,

[00:42:35] is sort of also to explore,

[00:42:36] is how to make the tangible,

[00:42:38] intangible,

[00:42:39] tangible,

[00:42:39] is it possible,

[00:42:40] to make the intangible,

[00:42:42] tangible,

[00:42:42] if so,

[00:42:43] in what way,

[00:42:43] because,

[00:42:44] it can actually,

[00:42:45] become quite complex,

[00:42:47] so,

[00:42:48] and sometimes,

[00:42:50] the fear of complexity,

[00:42:52] actually stops,

[00:42:53] people from exploring,

[00:42:56] certain frontiers,

[00:42:57] so,

[00:42:57] it's,

[00:42:59] whilst,

[00:43:00] you know,

[00:43:00] we really need,

[00:43:01] evidence-driven approach,

[00:43:03] to design,

[00:43:03] and I think,

[00:43:04] that is increasing,

[00:43:06] within the industry,

[00:43:07] so,

[00:43:08] particularly around,

[00:43:09] ecosystem services,

[00:43:10] and green infrastructure,

[00:43:12] sort of,

[00:43:12] the evidence around,

[00:43:13] how to measure,

[00:43:14] how accessible nature is,

[00:43:15] how to measure,

[00:43:16] impacts of,

[00:43:17] whether a place,

[00:43:19] is contributing,

[00:43:19] to climate regulation,

[00:43:21] to water attenuation,

[00:43:22] to carbon,

[00:43:25] sort of mitigation,

[00:43:27] as well as,

[00:43:29] pollution reduction,

[00:43:30] for example,

[00:43:32] I think,

[00:43:33] those are,

[00:43:34] available now,

[00:43:36] because,

[00:43:36] you know,

[00:43:37] there are a lot of,

[00:43:37] lot of different toolkits,

[00:43:39] and methodologies,

[00:43:40] to do that,

[00:43:40] but,

[00:43:40] some of the more,

[00:43:41] finer grain things,

[00:43:43] you know,

[00:43:43] such as,

[00:43:43] like,

[00:43:44] you mentioned public art,

[00:43:45] for example,

[00:43:46] or you mentioned,

[00:43:47] you know,

[00:43:48] depending on the scale,

[00:43:48] of the project,

[00:43:50] sometimes it is feasible,

[00:43:51] to undertake this process,

[00:43:52] of quantification,

[00:43:54] sometimes it is not,

[00:43:56] but yeah,

[00:43:57] this is a very interesting question,

[00:43:59] something to like,

[00:44:00] ponder over,

[00:44:02] you know,

[00:44:04] continually,

[00:44:05] yeah.

[00:44:06] Is there,

[00:44:07] is there sort of a,

[00:44:09] qualitative aspect,

[00:44:11] of the nature connection,

[00:44:12] for you as well,

[00:44:13] because I think,

[00:44:13] if we talk about,

[00:44:14] people,

[00:44:15] you know,

[00:44:16] are,

[00:44:17] contact with nature,

[00:44:18] that might be contact,

[00:44:19] with a manicured lawn,

[00:44:21] that has one species,

[00:44:22] of,

[00:44:23] of,

[00:44:24] vegetation on it,

[00:44:25] or it could be a sort of,

[00:44:26] semi-natural,

[00:44:28] meadow,

[00:44:29] that is,

[00:44:29] you know,

[00:44:30] has 30 species in it,

[00:44:31] and does that make any difference,

[00:44:32] to us,

[00:44:32] I sort of feel like,

[00:44:33] intuitively it does,

[00:44:35] but,

[00:44:35] I'm not sure,

[00:44:36] if the science,

[00:44:37] supports that.

[00:44:39] I mean,

[00:44:40] there's one,

[00:44:41] one factor,

[00:44:42] would be,

[00:44:45] kids learn a lot more,

[00:44:47] from,

[00:44:48] nature that is wild,

[00:44:50] than that is manicured,

[00:44:53] and,

[00:44:54] I do not have,

[00:44:56] I can't,

[00:44:57] back of my head,

[00:44:58] I can't get any numbers,

[00:45:00] or anything,

[00:45:00] but,

[00:45:03] the,

[00:45:03] the most playful,

[00:45:07] sort of,

[00:45:08] parks,

[00:45:08] I have,

[00:45:09] been,

[00:45:10] been to,

[00:45:10] or seen,

[00:45:12] which does not,

[00:45:13] necessarily involve,

[00:45:14] equipments,

[00:45:15] are the ones that,

[00:45:17] are,

[00:45:18] sort of,

[00:45:19] sort of wild meadows,

[00:45:20] or rain gardens,

[00:45:21] with little bridges,

[00:45:23] which allows them,

[00:45:24] to interact,

[00:45:24] and find new things,

[00:45:26] and,

[00:45:26] and understand,

[00:45:27] how,

[00:45:27] how the,

[00:45:28] how nature works,

[00:45:30] so,

[00:45:31] definitely,

[00:45:32] from,

[00:45:33] from a learning question,

[00:45:35] because that also,

[00:45:35] poses a bit of a risk,

[00:45:37] and I think you need,

[00:45:38] a bit of a risk,

[00:45:39] to learn,

[00:45:42] and,

[00:45:42] and,

[00:45:44] and to explore,

[00:45:45] so,

[00:45:47] and there's so many,

[00:45:48] great examples,

[00:45:49] around,

[00:45:49] how,

[00:45:51] you know,

[00:45:51] new public realm,

[00:45:52] have been,

[00:45:53] sort of,

[00:45:54] designed,

[00:45:56] or play spaces,

[00:45:57] have been designed,

[00:46:00] keeping in,

[00:46:00] with the,

[00:46:01] idea of,

[00:46:03] wilderness,

[00:46:04] that you can,

[00:46:05] you do not necessarily,

[00:46:06] have to go to the forest,

[00:46:08] but you can also have,

[00:46:09] a patch of wilderness,

[00:46:11] in an urban setting.

[00:46:13] And,

[00:46:13] also,

[00:46:14] I think,

[00:46:14] in terms of qualitative,

[00:46:18] aspect of nature,

[00:46:19] I mean,

[00:46:20] in,

[00:46:20] in terms of landscape ecology,

[00:46:23] there is a phrase,

[00:46:23] called structural diversity,

[00:46:26] what that means,

[00:46:27] is that the structural diversity,

[00:46:28] of any green space,

[00:46:30] so it relates to,

[00:46:31] the number of layers,

[00:46:33] that a space has,

[00:46:34] in terms of green,

[00:46:35] so like,

[00:46:35] for example,

[00:46:36] if you think of a woodland,

[00:46:37] or a forest,

[00:46:37] it will have the,

[00:46:38] understory,

[00:46:39] it will have bushes,

[00:46:40] it will have like,

[00:46:41] low level trees,

[00:46:42] it will have like,

[00:46:42] really tall trees,

[00:46:43] so,

[00:46:44] you know,

[00:46:44] the ecology works,

[00:46:45] at different levels,

[00:46:46] and that's why,

[00:46:47] and every layer of landscape,

[00:46:50] which has its own structure,

[00:46:52] contributes to the,

[00:46:53] overall ecosystem,

[00:46:55] of,

[00:46:55] of maintaining,

[00:46:56] the forest long term,

[00:46:57] without having to rely,

[00:46:58] on external resources,

[00:47:00] that's the,

[00:47:01] essence,

[00:47:02] of any natural system,

[00:47:03] so it is self-sufficient,

[00:47:04] efficient,

[00:47:06] now,

[00:47:06] when we think of,

[00:47:07] applying the concept,

[00:47:09] of structural diversity,

[00:47:11] wilderness,

[00:47:12] obviously,

[00:47:12] like when you think of a forest,

[00:47:13] you never think of a manicured forest,

[00:47:15] it is a wild space,

[00:47:16] so,

[00:47:17] you know,

[00:47:18] what that says,

[00:47:19] is that the level of,

[00:47:21] ecological value,

[00:47:22] increases,

[00:47:24] with structural diversity,

[00:47:25] but,

[00:47:27] in order to,

[00:47:28] make that structural,

[00:47:30] or,

[00:47:30] you know,

[00:47:30] sort of areas,

[00:47:31] of high ecological value,

[00:47:33] accessible,

[00:47:34] for experience,

[00:47:35] you need to have roots,

[00:47:37] through them,

[00:47:37] you need to have areas,

[00:47:38] which are more clear,

[00:47:40] or,

[00:47:40] or comparatively,

[00:47:41] more manicured,

[00:47:42] where people can sit,

[00:47:43] people can use,

[00:47:44] in a safe way,

[00:47:46] so,

[00:47:47] like,

[00:47:48] in my view,

[00:47:48] in terms of,

[00:47:49] the qualitative aspect,

[00:47:51] depending on,

[00:47:52] what sort of purpose,

[00:47:54] of the,

[00:47:54] that green space is,

[00:47:56] you know,

[00:47:57] the concept of structural diversity,

[00:47:58] becomes really relevant,

[00:47:59] like,

[00:48:00] how ecologically rich,

[00:48:02] do you want that habitat to be,

[00:48:04] or how,

[00:48:05] accessible,

[00:48:06] do you want that habitat to be,

[00:48:08] and what is the threshold,

[00:48:10] of,

[00:48:12] natural landscapes,

[00:48:14] that can be designed,

[00:48:16] within the space,

[00:48:17] whilst keeping,

[00:48:18] the accessibility,

[00:48:20] and safety levels,

[00:48:21] that are desired,

[00:48:22] so,

[00:48:23] it's a whole gradient.

[00:48:25] Yeah,

[00:48:25] but,

[00:48:25] to be honest,

[00:48:26] in,

[00:48:26] in most projects,

[00:48:28] now you have to do,

[00:48:31] UGF,

[00:48:31] urban green factor,

[00:48:33] and in that calculation chart,

[00:48:35] if you have grass lawn,

[00:48:37] you,

[00:48:37] you score the lowest,

[00:48:39] you know,

[00:48:40] more you have,

[00:48:42] you know,

[00:48:42] you have native species,

[00:48:43] and,

[00:48:43] and,

[00:48:45] that supports bees,

[00:48:46] and pollinators,

[00:48:48] you tend to score high,

[00:48:50] so I think,

[00:48:51] you know,

[00:48:52] just from that perspective,

[00:48:55] you know,

[00:48:55] and getting over the minimum threshold,

[00:48:57] of the UGF score,

[00:48:59] if not more,

[00:49:01] I think one would be,

[00:49:02] at a better position,

[00:49:04] if,

[00:49:04] if,

[00:49:06] if placemaking was not just centered around lawn,

[00:49:10] which I'm not saying it,

[00:49:11] it should not have,

[00:49:13] I think it,

[00:49:13] it has its purpose,

[00:49:15] but it needs to be,

[00:49:16] beyond that,

[00:49:19] it needs to be,

[00:49:20] a manicured lawn,

[00:49:21] and,

[00:49:22] structurally diverse,

[00:49:24] planting,

[00:49:25] that attracts bees,

[00:49:26] and pollinators,

[00:49:28] so yes,

[00:49:29] I think,

[00:49:29] there is a qualitative aspect,

[00:49:33] you know,

[00:49:33] that we,

[00:49:34] definitely be,

[00:49:36] need to be very mindful of,

[00:49:38] but again,

[00:49:39] bees,

[00:49:40] and pollinators,

[00:49:41] and all these,

[00:49:42] you know,

[00:49:44] ideas,

[00:49:44] of increasing structural diversity,

[00:49:47] needs to work,

[00:49:48] with the larger system,

[00:49:49] so we need to know,

[00:49:51] is this the way,

[00:49:52] is this the route that,

[00:49:53] you know,

[00:49:53] is the most convenient route,

[00:49:55] for bees,

[00:49:56] and pollinators to move,

[00:49:57] does it connect with,

[00:49:59] sort of,

[00:49:59] an existing,

[00:50:00] green grid,

[00:50:03] so I think,

[00:50:06] yeah,

[00:50:07] to get to the right,

[00:50:09] appropriate,

[00:50:10] qualitative aspect,

[00:50:12] we need to know,

[00:50:13] how it connects,

[00:50:13] to the wider picture,

[00:50:16] the sort of last question,

[00:50:17] I wanted to talk to you about,

[00:50:18] was a bit about,

[00:50:18] your writing process,

[00:50:20] and about how you tested,

[00:50:21] the principles in the book,

[00:50:22] on basically real projects,

[00:50:24] or on design projects,

[00:50:25] as you were going,

[00:50:27] so could you tell me,

[00:50:28] a little bit about that?

[00:50:29] This was a very interesting journey,

[00:50:31] I think one that led,

[00:50:32] to the inception,

[00:50:32] of our design practice,

[00:50:34] which is,

[00:50:35] we are based in,

[00:50:35] Brixton right now,

[00:50:36] but essentially,

[00:50:37] so this book started in 2011,

[00:50:39] and by the time,

[00:50:41] it was 2017,

[00:50:43] 2018,

[00:50:44] I think more 2018-ish,

[00:50:46] I think as a group,

[00:50:48] or as a team,

[00:50:49] we were in a place,

[00:50:50] where we were fairly comfortable,

[00:50:52] with the scope,

[00:50:53] and content of the book,

[00:50:54] but we were,

[00:50:57] quite skeptical as well,

[00:50:59] about its reception,

[00:51:01] because so far,

[00:51:02] it had,

[00:51:03] a lot of this,

[00:51:04] had been based on,

[00:51:05] you know,

[00:51:06] sort of,

[00:51:07] academic discourse,

[00:51:08] yes true,

[00:51:09] both Soham,

[00:51:09] and myself,

[00:51:11] amongst the four authors,

[00:51:13] were practicing,

[00:51:14] in private practices,

[00:51:16] at that point in time,

[00:51:18] but as a team of the book,

[00:51:20] we hadn't really practiced,

[00:51:21] or implemented,

[00:51:22] the approach,

[00:51:23] that we were suggesting,

[00:51:24] on any project,

[00:51:25] so at that point in time,

[00:51:27] we felt was the right time,

[00:51:28] to think how we can do that,

[00:51:30] so the easiest way,

[00:51:33] for us to do that,

[00:51:33] was through a competition,

[00:51:34] to start with,

[00:51:35] because this was,

[00:51:36] an independent project,

[00:51:37] we were not a formalized,

[00:51:38] organization of any sort,

[00:51:40] and it was something,

[00:51:41] that we were doing,

[00:51:43] independently,

[00:51:43] in our own time,

[00:51:45] so we came across,

[00:51:47] the RIBA competition,

[00:51:49] it was an international,

[00:51:50] open,

[00:51:50] anonymous competition,

[00:51:51] at least the first stage was,

[00:51:53] about reimagining,

[00:51:54] the garden city,

[00:51:55] in 2018,

[00:51:57] and we thought,

[00:51:58] that was a very,

[00:52:00] relevant brief,

[00:52:01] A,

[00:52:02] because,

[00:52:03] through that design brief,

[00:52:05] we were able to address,

[00:52:06] all the layers,

[00:52:07] or scales,

[00:52:08] of settlements,

[00:52:09] so right from strategic planning,

[00:52:10] to neighborhood scale,

[00:52:11] to kind of detailed design,

[00:52:13] of buildings,

[00:52:13] and public spaces,

[00:52:14] and public realm,

[00:52:17] and,

[00:52:18] also the brief,

[00:52:20] of that RIBA competition,

[00:52:21] was such that,

[00:52:22] it was very forward thinking,

[00:52:23] it was very much,

[00:52:24] aligned with,

[00:52:26] you know,

[00:52:26] sort of integration,

[00:52:28] how do we create,

[00:52:29] living environments,

[00:52:30] which are better integrated,

[00:52:31] with nature,

[00:52:31] which was essentially,

[00:52:32] the underlining premise,

[00:52:34] of the book,

[00:52:35] so,

[00:52:36] we,

[00:52:38] decided that,

[00:52:38] we would like to participate,

[00:52:39] in this book,

[00:52:41] and,

[00:52:43] but when we,

[00:52:44] wanted to enter the competition,

[00:52:45] we realized that,

[00:52:45] you have to be a,

[00:52:46] registered company,

[00:52:48] in order to be eligible,

[00:52:49] so that is why,

[00:52:50] we registered,

[00:52:51] our practice,

[00:52:52] in companies house,

[00:52:53] it was purely,

[00:52:54] in order to explore,

[00:52:56] a design project,

[00:52:58] in practice,

[00:52:58] and,

[00:52:59] on a real brief,

[00:53:00] on a real site,

[00:53:01] rather than a hypothetical site,

[00:53:02] and hypothetical brief,

[00:53:04] and,

[00:53:05] that is how the journey,

[00:53:06] began really,

[00:53:07] I mean,

[00:53:07] we were,

[00:53:07] very encouraged to see,

[00:53:09] that we got shortlisted,

[00:53:10] obviously first stage,

[00:53:11] was anonymous,

[00:53:12] so it was solely,

[00:53:12] on merit,

[00:53:13] and on the,

[00:53:14] you know,

[00:53:15] kind of,

[00:53:15] the strength of the ideas,

[00:53:17] and your approach,

[00:53:19] then,

[00:53:20] in the second stage,

[00:53:21] we got a chance,

[00:53:22] to develop our ideas further,

[00:53:23] it was a much more,

[00:53:24] detailed process,

[00:53:25] of design development,

[00:53:27] and we were just,

[00:53:28] I mean,

[00:53:28] we were,

[00:53:29] we were really intimidated,

[00:53:31] as well,

[00:53:31] because,

[00:53:32] you know,

[00:53:32] obviously we were,

[00:53:33] we were exploring,

[00:53:34] our approach,

[00:53:35] and it was a great,

[00:53:36] great,

[00:53:37] sort of project,

[00:53:38] to do that,

[00:53:39] but equally,

[00:53:40] we were like,

[00:53:40] up against,

[00:53:41] quite,

[00:53:42] sort of big practices,

[00:53:43] because it was not anonymous,

[00:53:45] at that stage,

[00:53:46] and,

[00:53:47] and that is where,

[00:53:48] I think we kind of,

[00:53:50] realized the importance,

[00:53:51] of narrative,

[00:53:51] because at the end of the day,

[00:53:52] if you think about it,

[00:53:54] a lot of organizations,

[00:53:55] we'll probably be saying,

[00:53:56] the same things,

[00:53:57] you know,

[00:53:58] design with water,

[00:53:59] design with landform,

[00:54:00] you know,

[00:54:00] create connected green corridors,

[00:54:02] active travel,

[00:54:03] but,

[00:54:04] storytelling,

[00:54:06] is extremely important,

[00:54:07] to get across,

[00:54:09] those ideas,

[00:54:10] in a way that is,

[00:54:11] can be communicated,

[00:54:12] so when we won,

[00:54:13] that competition,

[00:54:14] I think,

[00:54:15] we felt that,

[00:54:16] our ideas,

[00:54:17] and our approach,

[00:54:17] and this whole approach,

[00:54:19] of sort of systems,

[00:54:20] thinking,

[00:54:20] and approaching design,

[00:54:22] from a complex systems approach,

[00:54:25] resonated with a wider audience,

[00:54:28] once that was done,

[00:54:30] I think we came across,

[00:54:30] another RIBA competition,

[00:54:32] so Letchworth,

[00:54:32] was a very different kind of a site,

[00:54:33] green field site,

[00:54:34] 900 homes,

[00:54:36] an extension to a suburban,

[00:54:39] you know,

[00:54:39] pretty much a suburban setting,

[00:54:40] of the first,

[00:54:41] world's first garden city,

[00:54:42] of Letchworth,

[00:54:43] and,

[00:54:44] then the second competition,

[00:54:45] we came across,

[00:54:46] as a newly formed,

[00:54:48] practice,

[00:54:49] design practice,

[00:54:50] was,

[00:54:51] it was a,

[00:54:53] urban regeneration project,

[00:54:54] so it was not a green field expansion,

[00:54:56] it was urban regeneration,

[00:54:57] and to be honest,

[00:54:58] we were still,

[00:54:59] very much writing the book,

[00:55:00] and we were extremely greedy,

[00:55:02] that okay,

[00:55:02] we've tried it on a green field setting,

[00:55:04] why not,

[00:55:05] you know,

[00:55:06] urban regeneration,

[00:55:07] sort of brown field setting,

[00:55:09] as well,

[00:55:09] and,

[00:55:10] that brief as well,

[00:55:11] so that site was in Runcorn,

[00:55:13] again,

[00:55:13] very much a suburban setting,

[00:55:14] near Liverpool,

[00:55:15] and the brief,

[00:55:17] of that competition,

[00:55:18] was about vision for a future,

[00:55:19] so it was an extremely,

[00:55:20] progressive brief as well,

[00:55:23] again,

[00:55:23] I think we were very fortunate,

[00:55:24] we were working with a great,

[00:55:25] consultant team on both projects,

[00:55:28] this wouldn't be possible,

[00:55:29] without a multidisciplinary,

[00:55:30] sort of team,

[00:55:32] and we were very fortunate,

[00:55:33] to win that project as well,

[00:55:35] it was a RIBA competition,

[00:55:36] an open RIBA competition,

[00:55:38] so,

[00:55:38] and I think,

[00:55:40] again,

[00:55:40] the feedback that we received,

[00:55:41] from the jury,

[00:55:42] actually highlighted,

[00:55:43] that what resonated most,

[00:55:45] to them,

[00:55:47] was actually the approach,

[00:55:48] the joined up,

[00:55:49] cross boundary,

[00:55:50] approach of linking together,

[00:55:52] different systems,

[00:55:54] in ways that unlocks,

[00:55:55] development value,

[00:55:56] so I think,

[00:55:57] that was something,

[00:55:58] that was common feedback,

[00:56:00] across the two competitions,

[00:56:02] and since then,

[00:56:03] I think as a,

[00:56:04] young and emergent,

[00:56:05] fledging design practice,

[00:56:07] I think we were appointed,

[00:56:08] on both of those projects,

[00:56:10] which I think,

[00:56:10] we were extremely grateful for,

[00:56:13] to do a feasibility study,

[00:56:16] for the Runcorn Master Plan,

[00:56:17] and to do a,

[00:56:19] first the,

[00:56:20] design vision,

[00:56:22] collaboration,

[00:56:23] on the design vision,

[00:56:24] with the,

[00:56:25] Letchworth client,

[00:56:27] which was the,

[00:56:27] Letchworth Garden City,

[00:56:28] Heritage Foundation,

[00:56:29] and then eventually,

[00:56:30] through different stages,

[00:56:32] it went into,

[00:56:33] the strategic,

[00:56:33] master plan,

[00:56:35] framework,

[00:56:36] for that project,

[00:56:37] so,

[00:56:38] we,

[00:56:39] yeah,

[00:56:39] so we continued working,

[00:56:40] with a wider,

[00:56:41] appointed consultant team,

[00:56:43] continue to explore,

[00:56:44] and test these ideas,

[00:56:45] in more detail,

[00:56:46] in more depth,

[00:56:47] more rigorously,

[00:56:48] like for example,

[00:56:49] in the Runcorn project,

[00:56:50] which was about,

[00:56:50] 500,

[00:56:51] 600 home,

[00:56:52] urban regeneration,

[00:56:54] of an existing,

[00:56:55] business and technical park,

[00:56:57] into very much,

[00:56:58] a mixed use,

[00:56:59] zero carbon neighborhood,

[00:57:00] so in that particular project,

[00:57:02] and the client,

[00:57:03] was very sustainability driven,

[00:57:05] so he had,

[00:57:06] very high ambitions,

[00:57:07] on sustainability,

[00:57:09] as well as,

[00:57:10] in terms of social value,

[00:57:12] for the,

[00:57:12] for the project,

[00:57:13] which was great for us,

[00:57:14] because you know,

[00:57:15] that gives us a real drive,

[00:57:16] of pushing the agenda forward,

[00:57:18] so it was very much like,

[00:57:20] you know,

[00:57:20] kind of both these projects,

[00:57:21] were sort of with,

[00:57:22] very ideal clients,

[00:57:24] that were very supportive,

[00:57:26] of this agenda,

[00:57:27] and like for example,

[00:57:29] in the Runcorn project,

[00:57:30] we were working with,

[00:57:30] Liverpool John Moores University,

[00:57:32] who even though,

[00:57:33] we were at feasibility stage,

[00:57:35] very much,

[00:57:35] you know,

[00:57:36] sort of early stages of design,

[00:57:39] you know,

[00:57:39] kind of testing it,

[00:57:40] through hard evidence,

[00:57:41] so for example,

[00:57:42] a baseline study,

[00:57:43] of the site was done,

[00:57:45] the Liverpool John Moores University,

[00:57:46] then was using,

[00:57:48] their ecosystem services,

[00:57:49] analytical methodology,

[00:57:51] and tools,

[00:57:51] in order to assess,

[00:57:52] the different master plan options,

[00:57:54] of how it is performing,

[00:57:56] and what gains,

[00:57:57] would the master plan provide,

[00:57:59] and that would just be,

[00:58:00] one of the partners,

[00:58:01] there were a lot,

[00:58:02] other partners,

[00:58:03] and other disciplines,

[00:58:04] from engineering,

[00:58:05] landscape,

[00:58:05] ecology,

[00:58:06] transport,

[00:58:08] infrastructure,

[00:58:08] infrastructure,

[00:58:10] as well as,

[00:58:10] kind of architecture,

[00:58:12] structural design,

[00:58:13] so on and so forth,

[00:58:14] it was very,

[00:58:15] it was extremely,

[00:58:18] it was a very integrated,

[00:58:19] design process,

[00:58:20] and I think,

[00:58:22] that,

[00:58:22] the application,

[00:58:23] of some of these ideas,

[00:58:25] like in our experience,

[00:58:27] is heavily reliant,

[00:58:29] on project management,

[00:58:30] of those projects,

[00:58:31] projects,

[00:58:33] for us,

[00:58:33] I think,

[00:58:34] in both these projects,

[00:58:36] we were very much,

[00:58:37] like in Runcon,

[00:58:38] we were leading,

[00:58:38] the project management,

[00:58:39] in Letchworth,

[00:58:40] we were a very core part,

[00:58:41] of the project management,

[00:58:44] there wasn't,

[00:58:45] a separate consultant,

[00:58:46] appointed for that,

[00:58:48] and,

[00:58:48] I think in my view,

[00:58:49] that really helped,

[00:58:51] so,

[00:58:51] I mean,

[00:58:51] currently,

[00:58:52] how it happened,

[00:58:53] was that the Runcon project,

[00:58:54] because it was,

[00:58:55] at a stage,

[00:58:56] where we could publicly,

[00:58:57] disclose more information,

[00:58:59] about it,

[00:58:59] got integrated,

[00:59:01] in the book,

[00:59:01] so we've included,

[00:59:02] the Runcon project,

[00:59:03] as a worked out example,

[00:59:05] across each of the chapters,

[00:59:06] of the book,

[00:59:07] but,

[00:59:07] that is a conclusion,

[00:59:08] of a very iterative,

[00:59:10] design process,

[00:59:12] you know,

[00:59:12] where financial value,

[00:59:14] is equally important,

[00:59:17] in relation to,

[00:59:18] environmental,

[00:59:19] and social value,

[00:59:20] so,

[00:59:21] it's been a journey,

[00:59:22] but a very interesting journey,

[00:59:24] yeah.

[00:59:26] Fantastic,

[00:59:28] I think,

[00:59:29] unless you have any,

[00:59:30] sort of final thoughts,

[00:59:31] or suggestions,

[00:59:32] you want to share,

[00:59:33] with the audience,

[00:59:34] I think we can,

[00:59:34] sort of wrap it up there,

[00:59:35] but any final thoughts,

[00:59:36] before we close?

[00:59:38] I think,

[00:59:40] well,

[00:59:42] we hope,

[00:59:44] you know,

[00:59:45] people,

[00:59:46] read the book,

[00:59:48] and,

[00:59:49] apply the framework,

[00:59:50] I'm sure,

[00:59:51] many of you are probably,

[00:59:52] already doing that,

[00:59:54] but,

[00:59:56] you know,

[00:59:56] if,

[00:59:57] if you manage to,

[01:00:00] improve it,

[01:00:01] let us know,

[01:00:03] maybe,

[01:00:04] find opportunities,

[01:00:05] of working together,

[01:00:07] and,

[01:00:08] how this,

[01:00:09] I mean,

[01:00:10] this,

[01:00:11] this framework,

[01:00:12] that we are proposing,

[01:00:13] in our book,

[01:00:14] is,

[01:00:14] by any means,

[01:00:16] it's not complete,

[01:00:17] it's,

[01:00:17] we think we're just barely,

[01:00:19] you know,

[01:00:19] scratching the surface,

[01:00:21] and,

[01:00:22] and in a way,

[01:00:23] we,

[01:00:23] the intention,

[01:00:24] never was,

[01:00:25] to finish it,

[01:00:26] you know,

[01:00:26] because it cannot be,

[01:00:28] things are always changing,

[01:00:29] and evolving,

[01:00:31] but,

[01:00:33] we hope that,

[01:00:34] it gives some foundation,

[01:00:37] to guide,

[01:00:39] a responsive evolution,

[01:00:42] you know,

[01:00:42] towards,

[01:00:43] nudging towards,

[01:00:44] the right direction,

[01:00:45] and,

[01:00:46] you know,

[01:00:47] although,

[01:00:48] we are aware,

[01:00:49] that,

[01:00:50] the book,

[01:00:51] has been written,

[01:00:52] in the UK,

[01:00:53] although we are,

[01:00:54] both from India,

[01:00:55] but,

[01:00:56] you know,

[01:00:56] it,

[01:00:57] it would be,

[01:00:59] very difficult,

[01:01:00] to make it,

[01:01:01] absolutely,

[01:01:02] 100% multicultural,

[01:01:04] because,

[01:01:04] it wasn't,

[01:01:05] and,

[01:01:05] it would have taken us,

[01:01:08] more,

[01:01:08] more time,

[01:01:09] more than 13 years,

[01:01:10] a decade,

[01:01:10] yeah,

[01:01:11] so,

[01:01:12] therefore,

[01:01:12] the idea is,

[01:01:13] if,

[01:01:14] if you find this useful,

[01:01:15] please use it in your,

[01:01:16] own cultural context,

[01:01:18] and let us know,

[01:01:19] how you get on with it,

[01:01:21] and,

[01:01:21] maybe we can,

[01:01:23] you know,

[01:01:23] write another one,

[01:01:25] and,

[01:01:25] you know,

[01:01:27] make it,

[01:01:29] work for different,

[01:01:30] cultural contexts,

[01:01:31] and respond to,

[01:01:32] more emerging challenges.