#109: (WILD) Rewilding and Reconnecting Towns with the Landscape

[00:00:00] It's too easy just to think, oh no, this is too big a problem. What can I do to actually help or do anything about it? Well, if we all felt like that, then nothing would get done. Welcome to the Green Urbanist podcast, where we explore sustainable placemaking, climate action in cities and urban rewilding. I'm your host, Ross O'Chali, an urban designer, educator and sustainable placemaking consultant.

[00:00:25] Welcome back to the podcast and to part three of the podcast series on urban rewilding. Today's episode is a conversation with Stephen Mason. My name is Stephen Mason. I am the Community Parks Officer for Cheltenham Borough Council, working within the borough looking after all the green spaces or helping to look after all the green spaces.

[00:00:49] In this episode, me and Stephen have a great conversation all about the work that he and his team at the local authority in Cheltenham are doing to bring urban rewilding principles into a town setting and also how they're trying to connect the habitats in the city to the wider landscape as well.

[00:01:09] We talk a lot about the different kinds of projects that they're doing, like meadow creation, orchard creation, the way that they're working with communities and leveraging existing interest in conservation and nature, but also bringing these concepts to the wider community and gaining support for this kind of biodiversity projects. And overall, just a very practical and inspiring chat about making these kind of projects happen at the local level.

[00:01:38] Don't forget to check out the other episodes in the urban rewilding series. Links to those are in the episode description. You can listen to those after this one if you haven't heard them already. They're all great conversations, so don't miss it. First of all, I'd love to know what is your sort of definition of urban rewilding? Or if you use a different term, you know, let me know what that is and why.

[00:02:03] Yeah, no, that's I suppose the big question. Do you call it rewilding? We tend to, mainly because it's that headline grabbing term that the public have become more used to and hear it more and more often. Yes, it does have a lot of context around it and it very much depends where you are.

[00:02:29] If you're sat in the middle of Yellowstone National Park, it's perhaps got a slightly different context than if you're sat in, you know, in a park in Cheltenham. So it's having that sort of headline grabbing element to it that we can say, yes, this is a rewilding project. And people think, oh, yes, I sort of understand what that is.

[00:02:54] I mean, you know, if you if you Google rewilding, it sort of brings up a lot of images of wolves and bison and things. And, you know, people then think, well, are you saying you're going to let loose wolves in the middle of Cheltenham? Obviously, no, we're not. But then we and I think it will probably come up quite a bit during our conversation is is that communication with the community, with the with the local public. And then we we go on to describe it as biodiversity improvements.

[00:03:25] Again, that's a term that's becoming more and more used and people are becoming a bit more familiar and comfortable with it. So we we sort of use that rewilding as the as the hook, as the yes, that's what we're doing. And then we'll we'll go on then to explain, you know, what we're actually doing in a bit more detail in terms of biodiversity improvements and connectivity improvements as well. So, yeah, it's it's it it is an awkward one.

[00:03:55] And I guess you could probably spend far too much time thinking up of a name for it, whereas I just rather get out there and do it. So. So, yeah. Yeah. That's what we tend to do. OK, that's that's interesting. Yeah. And I think it's something I'm hearing actually from a lot of people is this thing of rewilding is an emotive term.

[00:04:16] And it's something that is maybe communicates more than other more technical terms like wildlife conservation or nature habitat restoration or something like that, which sounds a bit more technical. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, speaking to to the to the community on a on a level that they're going to understand and and get that hook into and think, oh, yeah, I'd like to learn a little bit more about that. Oh, yes. I understand why they're doing it.

[00:04:46] So, yeah. Great. So if you had if you were at like a public engagement event or if you're out in one of the parks in Cheltenham and someone asked you, so what's this rewilding stuff about? Do you have like a sort of a quick elevator pitch that you give them to sort of explain it? Well, we yeah, we would. So if they came to us and said, what's this rewilding about? They've obviously got that hook. They've you know, they've they've understood that term.

[00:05:12] So then we would or I would go on to say that it's it's improving biodiversity. It's introducing natural processes as far as we can into the town. And it's and it's about improving and increasing the connectivity through throughout the town and actually through the town as well.

[00:05:38] So enabling wildlife to enter the town, move through it and then maybe out the other side. So, yeah. Fascinating. Sort of what we you know, what what we tend to use. And then that then facilitates a further conversation. And you can then describe in more detail about the exact, you know, what you're actually doing with the project. Yeah, that's great. That makes makes sense to me. So, yeah, it'd be great to hear about what you what are you doing?

[00:06:06] What are your sort of projects, rewilding projects or whatever bad you want to put on us? The projects where you're enhancing biodiversity and connectivity in Geltum. I'd be interested to know what you're up to. Yeah. I mean, it can be anything from I guess its simplest element is just not mowing some verges. Um, now a lot of people, um, just just sort of say, well, you're only doing that to save money.

[00:06:35] And no, you're not actually doing that to save money because if anything, it doesn't save money. Um, it's if you leave grass to grow throughout the season on a verge, it's a lot more difficult to cut it at the end of the season. Or maybe you're once or twice cut than it is to do it every sort of two or three, four weeks, um, where it's nice and short. So no, it doesn't save money. Um, but that's, that's sort of something that we're beginning to introduce.

[00:07:04] Again, it is, uh, it's about communicating. Um, we tend to find that it's one thing making changes to maybe an area outside the town, a slightly more rural that people may only visit once, uh, you know, once a week or a couple of times a week. It's a totally different thing to actually make some changes in the area where they live day to day. Um, and people generally are resistant to change.

[00:07:34] Um, they're, they're, they're very sort of wary of it. Or it's, it's been kept like this for, you know, for as long as I remember. And, and, you know, you're saying now you're coming along to change it. Um, you also need to ensure that there is an element of management, um, rewilding in an urban context, um, isn't just leave it and that's it. And, you know, let it get on with it. There has to be some form of management.

[00:08:01] Um, even when you're trying to, uh, introduce, uh, more, um, sort of, uh, dynamic matrix, um, in terms of the habitats, uh, some natural processes in, in, you know, into the town. Um, you haven't got those megafauna, which, um, you know, the, the, the cows, the horses, the, um, the, the, the,

[00:08:27] the, uh, herbivores which come in and dynamically change, um, the, the, the habitats. So there has to be some form of management. Um, so we try and employ or beginning to employ even where we've got an area where it isn't, um, uh, maybe a grassed area that just, we just left long and it isn't cut.

[00:08:49] Um, we will try to, um, give a one meter strip maybe next to a path, um, where we will continue to mow that, that small strip. It just gives that element and that feeling for people that it is actually cared for. Because I think people, that's what they want. They, they want their area where they live and they, you know, and they work and they're there from day to day.

[00:09:13] Um, so we, that, we, we, we tend to find that's, um, you know, that's the best way forward. Um, but it's communicating that again. It's something that we're, um, we, we sort of highlighted that perhaps we haven't been as, as good as we could have done in the past.

[00:09:32] Um, so we're employing some, um, some, uh, additional stuff onto our website, um, to, uh, to, um, just communicate out that actually this is an area that, uh, is going to be maintained in a certain way. Um, in, in terms of, you know, yes, we're only just going to cut the one meter strip along the path. The rest of it will be left long and it's meant to be left long. Um, and they, these are the reasons why.

[00:10:00] Um, so that's sort of from, from the, from a very sort of simple thing that we've introduced. Um, and then, you know, we, we, we, we got to things like, um, Pitville Park, um, which is probably our biggest park. It's our, I'll say it's probably our primary park. Um, it's certainly the most visited. Um, and there's the, the, the historical side on the Eastern side in front of, uh, the pump room, if anybody knows it.

[00:10:26] That's the one that, that's very much kept as a traditional park and it's mown. Um, and it's, it's, it's sort of kept as a, as a historic element. Um, but the Eastern side around the larger lake, um, that's a little bit more wild. Um, there was running through it a, I think it was an 18 hole pitch and putt golf course. So as you can imagine, it was, it was a closely mown desert right the way through, through the area.

[00:10:55] Um, and I, and I would think probably huge amounts of, um, of effort and maintenance and manpower is used to keep it like that. Um, I do remember being, uh, you know, much younger actually playing around it. Well, I say playing that, that sort of, that confers an element of, uh, technical ability. I think I hacked my way around the course. Um, but it, it, it just wasn't being used. Um, and it, and it really wasn't, you know, it wasn't what we wanted on that area that the park.

[00:11:23] So we've, um, and it, and it started before I joined the council. Um, but it, um, so we've decided to put a wildflower meadow in or it's decided to put a wildflower meadow. So again, that was huge to begin with. That was big backlash from the local community because all they saw it was, this is a park, uh, an area of the park. It's always closely mown. That's always the way it's been. And now you're just leaving it and it looks messy.

[00:11:50] Um, and it's, it's, you know, you're, you're just forgetting about it. And it's always, it's only to save money. Um, we, luckily we, the, the, the people that started it off just plowed ahead and said, no, we're, we're going to do it. And they communicated it and did as much communication as they could, um, in terms of why we were doing it.

[00:12:11] Um, and then when I, uh, got involved with the council, but a couple of years ago now, um, it was decided to enhance it further by using, um, wildflower meadow seed that we collected from our hill. So as a, as Cheltenham Borough Council, we, uh, own and manage Leckhampton Hill, which has some quite sizable areas of, uh, of wildflower meadow, um, up there.

[00:12:39] So we managed to collect the seed from there and brought it down into the town, um, with the help of Cotswold National Landscape. Um, they helped and they supplemented some of the seed that we caught locally or they harvested locally. Um, so we brought it into the town and it was a bit of an experiment because if you can imagine that Leckhampton Hill is a calcareous limestone grassland, uh, meadows.

[00:13:03] And we're bringing it into the town to an area where, or large areas of, of, of, of the, uh, the bit we were going to seed was actually, uh, an old tip. Um, so we, we, we, we were sort of, you know, think, well, okay, let, let, you know, let's see what happens. Um, we haven't, we, it's our seed, so it wouldn't be disastrous. We haven't paid thousands and thousands for, for this seed. So we thought, okay, let's see what happens. Um, and it was, it was, we were amazed.

[00:13:31] Um, even the, the, um, the ecologist from Cotswold National Landscape was, was quite surprised and really pleased with, with what's actually taken. Um, and the, and the variety we've got. And, and it, it's come full circle in terms of the community. Um, because they now, they can walk through this meadow and you can just, um, hear the, the, the, the insects and the, the life that's there. Uh, whereas before it was like a, a complete death silence.

[00:14:00] Um, you know, it was, it was just nothing. You could hear the birds in the distance, but that was about it. It was, you know, there was just no life there at all. Whereas now it's, it's, it's, it's, I'd say it's deafening, but it's, you can just, you know, you hear the buzz and the, the crickets and the insects and the birds. And yeah, it's, it's, it's quite amazing. Um, and the public are, uh, and now completely on board with it.

[00:14:23] Um, to, to the point where when we go in and carry out the management and we do our cut at the end of the season, we get emails that come in saying, oh, you've destroyed the meadow. You've cut, you've cut it down. And we have to then go back and explain that, no, actually it's part of the management process. Um, in effect, what we're doing is we're, we're becoming cows and herbivores. So we're, we're, we're, uh, sort of grazing it down. Um, but just mechanically, um, and it will grow back. Um, and it obviously does.

[00:14:50] And everybody's, everybody's happy, but it's, it's, it's really good. Um, good sort of story that you start from a point where the local, um, community is, is very wary and, oh, no, we're not sure about this. Right round. And, and, and it was really due to, to, to the, to the sort of people involved that, no, we are going to do this. We're not just going to, um, to, to say, okay, well, we won't do it. We'll just continue to, to, to cut it as it always has been.

[00:15:19] Um, no, we're going to continue with this project. We think it's the right thing to do. And now the, the local community is totally on board. Um, so it's, yeah, it was, it's a good news project that one. Um, and it's beginning to develop. Um, we've actually extended it now over to the other side. There, there, there's a sort of road that splits through the area. Um, and we've gone to the other side of the road now. Uh, last year, uh, we, we, um, again, harvested and, and, and sowed that area. And we're interested to see what comes up next year.

[00:15:48] Um, so yeah, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, really good. Um, and the benefits that it, that it has, you can just tell that the amount of wildlife that suddenly has colonized this area that just didn't have anybody before. Um, it was, it didn't have any wildlife before. It was, yeah, it's really good. Just a quick break to tell you about a free training and PDF download that you can access right now.

[00:16:16] It's called Urban Sustainability in Five Case Studies. In it, I explain important sustainability principles through case studies of best practice, buildings, master plans, and public spaces. The link to the free training is in the episode description. I love that. I think that's like, um, some, probably some really practical ideas there for other local authorities or other landowners to think about doing.

[00:16:45] Um, and particularly, I love that thing of harvesting the seeds locally from a site nearby because that's just, yeah. Yeah. I guess it shows even if the soil is different locally, at least, you know, the conditions, the climate is the same, all that kind of stuff. So it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our idea is to, uh, eventually when it becomes mature enough, which is, is not too far off, um, we will actually harvest seed from the, the, the Pitbull Park and use that

[00:17:13] in other areas of the town as well to spread out and increase, increase the areas. So, so not only is it, um, you know, let's look at it in money terms, not only is it saving its money because wildflower seed is incredibly expensive at the moment. Um, it's, it's ridiculously so, um, that, that it actually, it reduces the, if you like, the carbon footprint, cause we're using local seed. Um, as, as you said, it's, it's, it's seed that's proven to, um, to, to grow well in that

[00:17:42] climate in the area that we're in. And it should just be a, hopefully a win-win, but yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Amazing. Nice. Um, I'd be interested to know a bit about what are you doing in terms of ecological connectivity that you mentioned earlier through the town? How are you promoting that? Yes, we, it's something that we're beginning to look at. Um, we are very lucky in Cheltenham in that we do have, um, there is an old, um, disused

[00:18:10] railway line, which cuts pretty much north to south through the, um, through the, the town, um, that we actually own and manage. Um, so we, we, we've got that, that connectivity, uh, line sort of pretty much there. Um, so we don't need to do a great deal to actually produce that. Um, but it's about enhancing that. And it's about connecting that with other areas of the town.

[00:18:38] So what, what we don't want to do is, is to, um, create these projects, this nice little wildflower meadow here, or maybe a traditional orchard here, but have them as, as isolated areas. We want to try and ensure that they're, a, um, put in the right place and also, um, with, with the right additional, um, ecological features that will create that, that ability

[00:19:06] for, for wildlife to actually move through, um, through the town, um, and then into and out of the town. Um, and then we've also got, um, it's probably three, I guess, but the main run being the river Chelt, um, is rivers running, uh, east to west. So we've sort of got those natural lines. And I guess a lot of towns probably have actually, if they actually looked at it, a lot of towns and cities, they have these, these natural corridors that are already there.

[00:19:34] Um, and it's about connecting into those, um, and just, just making it easy for, uh, for wildlife to, to move through, um, and move around to the various habitats that you might create throughout the town. Yeah. That's great. I think another thing that I think will, I hope will become more common in coming years and decades is as we start to reevaluate the big road infrastructure that we have in cities.

[00:19:59] And as we start to slim things down and promote cycling and walking and, you know, these sort of more efficient modes of transport, we have all this street space that actually could become ecological corridors as well in terms of planting and, uh, and more street trees and things like that. So yeah, who knows? Maybe more opportunities for other places. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, we are very lucky in Cheltenham as we do have a lot of street trees, um, quite mature street trees as well.

[00:20:26] Um, but certainly, as you said, these, you know, there are areas, um, I've no doubt in it, in any town, um, where you can increase the amount of street trees, um, and plant them up. And they do, if you, if you put them, you know, streets naturally are corridors. Um, so if you just increase, increase the number of street trees you've got, um, a few little, maybe a little rain gardens, um, on, on street level that you can put in, then yeah, it's just going to benefit that, that connectivity.

[00:20:57] I wanted to move on, just ask a little bit more about some of the, I suppose, some of the people who are involved and some of the logistics around the, uh, the projects, but I just wanted to check that. Was there anything else you wanted to mention before we move on to that? No, I don't, I, I say we, we could talk for, for hours and hours about the little projects that we've, we've done, um, which maybe we'll do offline, but, uh, but yeah, so, so we've, I mean, I guess the other, the other big one that, and certainly the one that I'm involved in is, is putting in traditional orchards around Cheltenham.

[00:21:27] Um, Cheltenham as, as with many areas in the, in the Southwest, um, was a huge orchard area. Um, you just need to look at the maps from, from even the forties, the fifties. Um, and it was just, they were just small scale traditional orchards, absolutely everywhere. Um, and we, we, we sort of beginning to understand and we, we all be able to know that what, um, what an amazing habitat they are in terms of biodiversity.

[00:21:52] Um, and, and I'm just trying to, um, I say I'm re-orcharding Cheltenham just, just one bit, but one bit at a time. Um, but it's, it's creating those, again, those little islands of, um, of, of increased biodiversity and, and habitat. Um, and the good thing about orchards is it's very much got a, a, a human element to it. Um, so it's not just saying, right, this area is for wildlife and we're just going to leave it over there.

[00:22:20] And, and, you know, there's no sort of interaction or very limited interaction with, with, with sort of the, the human element. Whereas with a traditional orchard, there is, um, you know, you've got all those things that you can do from, um, you know, from sort of events. You know, you could go wassailing if you really want to and, and drink lots of cider, um, in, in the winter, right through to blossom events, to summer events, to, um, apple picking events.

[00:22:48] So then you've got the, the actual fruit. Um, and it, and it's just a, just a, an amazing place to be really. I mean, I, there's nowhere else I'd want to be on a nice, on a nice sunny day as I would, I was in an orchard at the weekend on, on Saturday and it was just, yeah, absolutely idyllic. Um, and an amazing place. Um, and it, and it's something that we're just trying to, to introduce a little bit more of in Cheltenham.

[00:23:13] Um, you know, we, we, we, they, they, we call them community orchards and the key to it is to get the community. Um, it's, it get them involved and wanting an orchard rather than imposing something on them, um, that then just becomes a, a few trees just sort of, you know, sat in a field and, and, and nobody's really looking after them. So, so that, that, that's the key to it, but that's, that's another big, um, big sort of element to, to, to what I do. Brilliant.

[00:23:42] And I think that leads me on to my question about who has been involved and who have been the important actors involved in making these rewilding projects happen? It sounds like the local authority has been leading, but has there also been community groups or other businesses or anything involved like that? Yeah. Yeah. So, so we, we as a small team, we're quite a small green space team. Um, and I think we've now, we're now quite, um, we, the people involved are quite passionate

[00:24:10] about, um, about these projects and putting them in, into Cheltenham wherever we can. Um, but yeah, we can't do it on our own. I mean, we'd be, we'd be forced to, to think that's the case. So we, we link in, and I've mentioned them before, Cotswold National Landscape, um, because we're right on the edge of the Cotswolds and technically we're not in the ANOB, the outstanding area of, uh, natural beauty. Um, but we're right on the edge of it.

[00:24:39] So we do have a good link in with them and they, they give us all of those, um, that, that sort of expertise knowledge, um, that, that they've got. Um, we link in with the wildlife trust. So we've got Glossier Wildlife Trust. We have big links in with them. Um, and we link in with a number of projects that they do. Um, so we can help facilitate those. And also we get that knowledge exchange.

[00:25:04] Um, and then right down to, um, sort of the, the local community, the friends groups, all of our parks, a lot of, certainly our big parks have friends groups. And a lot of them are, a lot of the people there are very passionate about what they do. Um, and, and so we, we get them on board and they can help facilitate, um, be it, you know, from raising money to, to actually coming and actually getting their hands dirty and, and

[00:25:33] actually doing the projects as well. So it's, it's a case for us of being the facilitator and just pulling in the knowledge from, from wherever we need it. Um, there's always people out there who are willing to, um, to help projects like these. And it's just going out there and finding them. Um, you know, we, we, we tend to find, um, sort of going to events, um, sort of local,

[00:26:00] local seminars, get our name out there that suddenly you might meet somebody. Um, and I mean, we, we, we went to a local one recently, um, and we met somebody from the new conservation project. Um, who's looking to put in, um, ponds in the area, um, specifically to, to help newts. And, you know, that suddenly you think, oh yeah, that could be a really good project. Um, and so, so we're starting to have conversations with, with them and it's, it's, it, it's sort

[00:26:29] of finding those people that are going to give you the, the knowledge you need. Um, so the bit that we provide is the passion behind it. Um, and, and then we just go out and find the people who can, who can actually make it happen. So, yeah. Sounds really collaborative. Yeah. And I do get a sense as well that there's lots and lots of people and we're quite scattered a lot of the time of people who are passionate about these things and want to be involved in it. And it sounds like, would you say your team is playing a role in bringing those together and forming a big world?

[00:26:59] Hopefully, yeah, we, we, we hope to that. And we hope to do that more and more in the, in the, in the future. Um, so yeah, we, we, we, you know, we, we, we, we're sort of that hub if you like. Um, and we've, we've, we can provide the, the, the land and the, the areas to actually do these projects. Um, I mean, we, we, as a team, get our hands dirty and get out there and do it. Um, but then we, we can, you know, cause we got links in with the local university, the Gloucester University. Um, some of the students in the last few days have come to us and said, well, we'd really

[00:27:28] like to do this project in one of the parks. What do you think? Um, and we're, so we're starting a discussion with them and hopefully something will, or, or, or, or sort of come of that. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's about facilitating, um, and just being as open as open as possible. Um, you know, not, not being too closed off and say, no, no, this is our park. And that's, that's, that's how it's going to be managed. And that's what each of these areas are going to be. It's, it's about being open to, to new ideas and new ways of, of, of doing things.

[00:27:57] Brilliant. Um, it feels to me like there's a lot of momentum now behind call it rewilding or nature restoration or these sort of biodiversity, um, you know, promoting biodiversity in urban areas. Do you feel like for your projects and your work, has there been any sort of larger systemic changes that you think have sort of facilitated that? Do you think there's changes in the politics or our mindsets or culture or something like that? Yeah, I, I, I think so. Um, I, I think we're,

[00:28:26] with the, with the, um, the fact that people now understand biodiversity rewilding, they understand that there is, uh, a biodiversity emergency in the, in, in the country. We're one of the, um, you know, we, we, we've got biodiversity has been depleted in this country probably more than, than any other in Europe. Um, and, and we've got to do something about

[00:28:50] and I think having that mindset in the general public, um, or that sort of ability to, to think, oh, okay, yes, no, I understand that. That's fine. They may not engage fully with it, but, but they sort of understand why we're doing it. Um, that then filters down to, um, to the, uh, the local politics in the area and the councillors. Um, cause ultimately they, they, they represent the,

[00:29:17] uh, the local community and that's what they're imposed to do. So to have the, the, the local community now sort of more on board with what we're trying to do, that does make it a lot easier. Um, when, when, when we're, um, out there in the, and we put forward, uh, right, we're going to do this project within the park. Um, some of them slightly, you know, large like the Pitville, some of them quite small. Um, I mean, we've, we've also looking at, um, maybe changing a lot

[00:29:47] of the traditional, uh, annual, um, beds, um, where they've got lots of annual plants that, uh, require huge amounts of, uh, maintenance and water and all that side of things. We've slowly been reducing those down to now we've just got a handful in Cheltenham. Um, and we're even, um, looking at changing maybe the one outside the, the municipal offices, which is sort of the, the, the big council

[00:30:14] building, uh, in the, in, in the centre of Cheltenham. And, you know, we're even looking at changing that, um, out the front, um, which has always been, always been, you know, annual, uh, annual plants have been put in, um, changing that to more of a perennial scheme, which will, which will sort of, a reduce the amount of maintenance, but also we can put in a lot of, uh, plants that are going to increase, um, uh, pollinators and, and, and birds and,

[00:30:43] and et cetera, et cetera. So, so yeah, it's, it, it, it has been made, I think the changing mindset over the last sort of, I suppose, five years or so has made it a bit easier for us to go out there and do, you know, do these projects. So yeah, definitely. Great. Great. Really good to hear that. Um, I think this has been a really positive conversation, but I'm going to ask you to focus on the negatives for a minute because, because I'm interested in,

[00:31:09] in knowing what are some of the barriers or challenges that some of your projects have faced? And then, you know, would you have any, how did you overcome these? And I guess maybe that there's some advice for other, other local authorities in there as well. Yeah. I, I think it's, I mean, the, the main one is the, is the, um, the local community and communicating with the local community. That's always the biggest barrier. Um, it's, you know,

[00:31:35] you're, you're coming into the area where they spend most of their time. Um, and you're saying, right now we're going to totally change the way we've, uh, we're, we're looking at this area and we're going to maintain this area and it's suddenly going to look a lot more, I would say scruffy, but it's, it's, it's going to have, um, uh, areas that aren't known as much. Um, and suddenly people go, Oh no, I don't like that. No, no, no, no, no. We can't. And it's continuing

[00:32:01] that, that process of, of, of communication. Um, so you don't just communicate with them once, you just carry on doing it, um, in a number of different ways. So we're starting to, um, uh, go out onto social media now and, and explain bits and put photos and look how wonderful this is. This is why we're doing it. Um, it's about having additional things on the website to explain. Um,

[00:32:27] and it's about being, trying to be out there in, in, um, uh, an approachable actually within the parks and people often do, if you're out there, uh, working in a park, people will invariably come up and ask, well, what are you doing? Um, and then you can then go through and explain, you know, what it's all about. Um, but it's, it's, that's, that's always the most, the most sort of difficult

[00:32:50] thing to overcome, um, is, is that you're, you're suddenly changing an area, um, you know, that, that people have known and maybe loved for, for years and years, but it's, yeah, it's about, and it's making them understand that, um, nature is dynamic. So it's not about saying, right, I'm going to leave this area long, um, and let maybe an area of brambles grow and that's

[00:33:17] how it's going to be. So we've gone from a, from a sort of closely cut and mown area to an area that's long, long grass, bit of bramble. And that's, you know, that's it. We've just changed to that. It's about trying to get over that it's, it's dynamic and maybe one year we might come in and cut it all down and then we'll leave it for three, four years just to grow back up again. And we'll do

[00:33:40] that as a, as a dynamic process throughout the area. Um, and it's, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's trying to get that across to the people as well that don't expect it now suddenly to be long grass. Um, it may be, you know, it's cut, um, and then, then left for a few years. So, so that's always the, the, the difficult thing as well. Um, but yeah, we, we, we, we're getting there.

[00:34:06] I mean, we, we, you know, we, we are getting, um, uh, better at communicating out. We're always trying to find different, different ways, um, which is why we, we like to go to these events, um, as much as we can with our, you know, little display boards and this is what we do and this is why we're doing it. Um, and that, that normally you do get quite a, you know, a reasonable, um, number of people that come up and do ask some very, you know, very valid questions. Um,

[00:34:32] but it's also about us not being completely tunnel vision. Um, it, it's a, it's a, it's a process and a collaborative process with the local community. And it may be that there's some very good reasons why a certain area needs, isn't, isn't right for, let's call it rewilding, but isn't right for rewilding. Um, and we have to take those on board. Um, it's about creating, because the,

[00:35:01] the, these parks are, uh, certainly the local parks are, people spend a lot of time in them. Um, and if we just let them or large areas of them just go to, to, to rewilding and become a little bit more scrubby and a little bit more, um, um, sort of long grass brambles that may affect the, the, the, the, the safety element of the park. People need to come into these parks and engage

[00:35:29] with these parks and engage with nature because that's, that's how we're going to, um, let this, you know, move forward and, and increase the amount of biodiversity we can have in times, um, is to get the local community involved, you know, on board with it. And if suddenly you create a park where they don't feel safe, then I'm not sure that's, that, that might be good for, for nature on the one hand, but is it actually going to be right for, for, for the human element?

[00:35:56] Um, and also then you might start to have backlash, um, and, and have to end up just going back to, you know, back to what it was. So it's, it, it's about that sort of fine line that you need to, need to tread. Um, you can't just do everything in terms of for nature, certainly in an urban context, you have to acknowledge that there is a human element and a big human element, and you have to take that, you know, take that on board. Um, and that, that's, that's just a learning process for,

[00:36:25] for us as much as it is for the, for the local community. Yeah. That, that, that echoes a lot with my experience. My background is in urban, urban planning, town planning, and, you know, community engagement and collaboration is like such a fundamental part of that whenever you're doing anything. Um, and it's often a case of, you know, telling them what you want to do and getting feedback, but also an educational element of explaining why you're doing something that maybe they hadn't considered was an option before

[00:36:54] and why there might be some benefits to that. And it, it, yeah, it can be quite, it can be tricky, but I think when it's done well, it's, you know, it's, it's so, so beneficial and you learn so much from that process, you know, that goes into your, your final interventions. Yes. Yeah, very much so. I mean, we, we, we like to collaborate a lot with local schools. So we go in and explain to the, to the pupils, you know, why we're doing it, what we're doing.

[00:37:22] Um, and, and they, they, they become really engaged. They're, they're the ones that immediately it, it, it twigs for them and they think, oh yeah, no, I understand completely. Um, why you're doing this? And they're very much on board with it, but, um, but yeah, because I, I run a lot of, um, uh, bat walks, uh, throughout the time with, with, uh, with the local, a lot of them is with local schools, but also with, with other community groups. Um, so again, I've got a link in with the Glossier University and I borrow some of their, uh, bat detector kit

[00:37:51] and we go out with the kids and they absolutely love it. Um, and, and I, I did one a few weeks ago and one of the kids come up to me and said, I've never done a night walk before. This is amazing. And it, and it, and it's introducing that whole new concept to, to, to, you know, this one child that actually, um, the wildlife and nature doesn't just go to bed when you go to bed. Um, it, it, you know, it's 24 seven, it's, it's throughout the night and there are,

[00:38:17] you know, animals and creatures and you can, you know, bats, there are, um, you know, all those owls, all sorts of things that, that are out and about the foxes. Um, we saw, you know, a few foxes on the walk and, and they were all absolutely amazed with it. Um, and that, that's, that I think is so important is getting that next generation completely engaged with it, uh, understanding why we've got to do it. Um, cause it, it, it, it's all very well us, um, um, putting in all these

[00:38:43] interventions, um, trying to solve the, the, the, the climate crisis, um, all these things. If actually we haven't got that generation coming up behind us that are going to take that baton and run with it even further. Um, so it's yeah, very important. Amazing. Love that. Batwalks aren't quite magical. Oh yeah. I do as many as I can. So yeah, they are good. They are good. Um, I'd be interested to know, so there's, there's lots of, you know, urban rewilding

[00:39:12] projects popping up across the UK and around the world. Have any other projects influenced what you're doing in Cheltenham? I suppose, um, I mean, you know, there's always the big one in, in, in this country, the likes of the neps and things. And you, you, you know, you, you sort of hear that I haven't been lucky enough to go and visit yet. Uh, but I, I, I hope to. Um, and that, that's

[00:39:36] always, if you like a flag bearer of, of, of, you know, what can happen. Um, but there are other, lots of other projects. I mean, I'm, I'm involved with and taking a lot of inspiration from, uh, from the Grange project over between Monmouth and, and Abergavenny. Um, the amazing, uh, Tom and Chloe Constable are, are out there doing, you know, on a much smaller scale than that, but a very much a similar thing. Um, and again, it's

[00:40:02] that, it's that sort of collaborative, um, uh, sort of learning process that, that I went and visited that and came away thinking, well, actually, yeah, no, that'd be really good if we could employ that on maybe a much smaller scale. Um, but in some of the, some of the traditional orchards that I'm, I'm putting in. And, and so, yeah, it's, it's, I guess as a, in terms, certainly in terms of the urban rewilding projects, I don't think

[00:40:28] as a, as a, if you like a countrywide community, we're particularly good at shouting about what we, what we do. And maybe that's something that we, you know, we need to do, uh, a bit more of is, is, is to have those, those projects that can become that, that when you think, oh yeah, actually I could employ that in my town. Um, but, but yeah, so it, it, it tends to be the sort of the larger projects, um, that, that you get, gets a lot more coverage

[00:40:54] that you, you sort of get inspiration from. And, and it might only be that you can take one or two elements maybe of that, um, and employ it in the town. Um, but if that's, you know, if that's the case, that's, that's brilliant. So, so yeah. Yeah. Rewilding is very much a practical applied science, isn't it? So it's, you, you, you know, when you go and visit places, that's when you just really understand actually how these, how these principles work in practice. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:41:24] It, it seems like there's, I'm just thinking off the top of my head, other local authorities that are doing similar stuff to you, the likes of Reading. I know Darby are starting to look at, um, rewilding some of their parks and yeah, it seems like there could be lots of, also Enfield in London who I'm also speaking to as part of this podcast series. So I'm sure there's lots of shared learning that could go on between you, but there isn't like a, there isn't a place for that to happen yet, is there?

[00:41:49] No, no, no. Um, I mean, we are part of the, or we do link in with the, I think it's the Reclaim project, which is an urban, um, urban rewilding, uh, projects are run by University of Surrey, I think it is. Okay. Uh, but it's like an international collaboration. Um, and that's, that's looking at elements of, of how you can rewild or bring biodiversity into, into the town, um, or into towns and

[00:42:16] cities. Um, but again, that's, I wouldn't say it's particularly well advertised, um, but it's, it's, it's definitely worth the look if anybody's, you know, sort of looking to, um, to introduce projects, um, into the, uh, to the urban environment. Then yeah, the Reclaim, Reclaim project through the, um, University of Surrey is, is definitely one to look at. Um, there's lots of, lots of shared learning, uh, on there. So yeah, that's great. I'm going to check that out. I hadn't heard of it before. No, I would do. Yeah.

[00:42:46] We're kind of coming into the closing, closing scenes here. Um, and I'm really interested to know, I have this sort of quite big question to end on. Um, really interested to get your perspective, which is if we sort of zoom out a bit and we think about urban rewilding as the sort of bigger movement that's going on, um, for you, how would you like to see that going in the coming years? And what would be like, what would success mean for you? Um, or, or what, you know, for that, for that kind of wider movement?

[00:43:15] Yeah. If, if, I mean, you know, in terms of our projects, if we, we sort of zoom back in again, um, it's, we, we have carried out a lot of baseline surveys, um, to say, right, that's the state of it at the moment. And then we will carry out these surveys again, um, in the future, um, in the next few years and say, right, okay, has biodiversity improved? Um, and that, that's, that's, that's one element, um, to say, yes, is it, is it, uh, successful on, on, on that side of

[00:43:44] things? Um, then you move out and say, well, have the public been engaged? Are they more accepting of, of, of similar projects if we employed them in the area? Um, that would be a big success tick in the box, box for us. Um, you know, has, has there been, uh, some quite good advertisement about it? Has it been out there on social media? Have we got people sort of, uh, contacting

[00:44:09] us from maybe local, um, sort of papers and things to say, well, what, you know, we understand you're doing this and, you know, and that's, that, that's always good. But then if you, if you then move out to, to more along the lines of what, what you were talking about, it's, um, having that joined up thinking with, um, other local authorities. It links back into the connectivity side of things. I mean, us, us, as, as humans, we're very good at drawing

[00:44:39] arbitrary lines on a map. Um, so if, if, if I go onto the, onto the software we have with, with our, you know, the Cheltenham Borough Council software, um, and you pull it up on the screen, there's a big black line, wiggly line that goes, and that's, that's Cheltenham Borough Council. And that's, that's what's decided. And I, you know, as a team, we look at everything within that line, everything without outside of that line. Well, no, that's, that's not us, that's somebody else. Um, and, and obviously with the, um, with the economic,

[00:45:07] um, uh, current economic state, um, it's, you know, it's not easy. Um, a lot of councils across the country, I've no doubt have had, uh, reductions in the amount of staff and the amount of budgets that these, you know, the green space departments, uh, can actually have. So not only are you, um, you have a sort of a line and, and it says, right, that's what you've got to manage. You've got less resource to actually manage it with. So you're less likely

[00:45:35] to have that sort of, um, outward looking view or have the ability to, to have that outward looking view. Um, but I think it's, it's so important. It's, it's all very well for, for us in Cheltenham to say, right, we're going to put all these wonderful connectivity, um, routes through our town. We're going to do all these lovely projects and then that not actually con, uh, connect up with other things that are going on around, around Cheltenham. Um,

[00:46:02] it's, so it's, it's trying to produce something that's on a landscape scale, not just a smaller urban scale. So if we can get to the point where actually we are talking with all the local authorities, uh, around, uh, the Cheltenham borough, um, and actually having conversation to say, well, actually we're, we're, we're going to do this project here. I think it would link up really well with this area that you've got and you can do a project there. I think that's, you know,

[00:46:32] to me, that's, that's where it needs to go, um, to have that, that, that ability for wildlife to move, um, right through the landscape, not just small islands. Um, so if they become, you know, if you've got a population, um, that's, that suddenly becomes under stress for some reason, they've got the ability to withstand that and just move to, to other areas that are, that are suitable, um, and, and, and, you know, continue rather than just declining. And this is what

[00:47:00] we've seen for years and years is these isolated pockets, um, the, the, the population's just completely declined because they've got nowhere else to go to, um, or find it very difficult to, to, to move around. Um, and that, so that's the, you know, the issue. So for me, that I think would be, um, would be in a, a really big, big tick if we can get to that point. And I think we will do, I think, I think with more and more councils, I've no doubt there are, I mean, I know of a few

[00:47:27] councils and you've mentioned a few, um, that are doing it, but I've no doubt there are, you know, many, many other councils that are doing all these sorts of things. And it's, it's about trying to link in with them. Um, you know, maybe that needs to come from a, from a sort of more of a governmental, um, uh, side of things to say, right, okay, we're going to set up this, this regional, um, uh, body,

[00:47:52] which can look at how it connects in with and, and, you know, having all the local authorities on board. I, I, I don't know. I mean, it's difficult to say with the current economic climate, but, um, you know, but yeah, I, I think we, you know, we, we can't really just sit back and say, okay, we'll just wait for the government to do something. We just got to get out there and, and actually just start to do it, um, and start to make those, those, um, those connections, um, with other local authorities.

[00:48:20] I, I love the idea of a town or a city or an urban place, you know, thinking of that as being integrated with its wider landscape and ecological region, because I think we're so used to, and I'm probably guilty of this as well on the podcast of sort of compartmentalizing the urban ecology and the wider ecology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it, it, it's very much what we're, what we're looking at. I mean, we are lucky enough, um, in Cheltenham to be pretty much surrounded by rural areas completely

[00:48:48] on all sides. Um, some of them are quite, quite narrow now before it disappears off and goes into Gloucester, but it's, um, but there are, you know, there are rural areas all the way around. So we can't, we have got that ability to, uh, to link up with the wider landscape, um, you know, be it up into the Cotswolds or up into the, um, the Seven Vale. Um, but it, it, it's still having that, that sort of conversations and that dialogue with other local authorities to see how we can do that,

[00:49:17] you know, do that better, um, to, to, to help the movement of wildlife. Yeah. I wonder, will the creation of local nature recovery strategies, which I know are going on at the moment? I think, yeah, I think that will, that will certainly help, um, cause it does bring together, um, various members from, uh, from certainly from our point of view from around Gloucestershire.

[00:49:42] Um, so I think that that will definitely help, um, whether BNG helps the biodiversity net gain, that may help because you, you, you sort of have to look at more of a landscape scale and how your, uh, development fits in with that. Um, so yeah, maybe that will help. So I, I, I, you know, I'm not completely, um, sort of depressed about it and thinking, oh, this is never going to happen. I think it will. Um, and we're, we're slowly moving to that, you know, to that, uh, to that end,

[00:50:12] but yeah, that, that, that's the end goal anyway. Great. Great. So you're definitely, you're feeling optimistic, I suppose you'd say that. I think so. I think, I mean, you know, whether that's naturally myself, I don't know, but I think, yeah, I think you have to be, I think it's, you know, it's too easy just to be cut and think, oh no, this is too big a problem. I, what can I do to, to actually, you know, help, um, or do anything about it? Well, if we all felt like that, then nothing would get done. Um, so yes, I, I, I can't help on a, on a national scale,

[00:50:41] possibly not in the role I have, but certainly on, on a local scale. Yes. I'd like to think that I can do my, do my little bit. Um, and then, um, hopefully we'll, um, you know, it'll, it will help. And if everybody does that, um, then, you know, suddenly it starts to starts to become more of a, you know, a bigger picture. Yeah. Brilliant. Um, this has been such a great conversation. I've learned loads. Any fun, any sort of final points before we wrap up anything that you want?

[00:51:10] Well, I just think people just need to just get out there and have a, you know, have a go, be it on a, you know, for, for people who might just be a, uh, you know, a local resident and they've got a garden. Well, do something in the garden, put in a pond, just leave a little bit. That's a little, you know, area that's a little bit more, um, uh, long grass and, and, you know, don't cut your lawn so often that will all that sort of thing. Um, that's all good, but it might be that

[00:51:36] there's some local projects that are ongoing in your area that you can get involved with. Um, so, you know, certainly the local wildlife trusts and every area has a, as a local wildlife trust, they're always a good, good starting point. And then any of the local authority websites, um, you know, we're trying to, um, get out as much as we can on the websites about what we're doing and the projects we've got going. Um, and it might be that you can, you know, people can get involved in that. Um, you know, local residents can, can come along and help it,

[00:52:06] you know, help actually implement it, manage it, um, and gain something from, you know, from that. Um, and then in their own way, they might be able to influence it as well. Cause it, it, as you know, as I've said many times before, it's not about us being tunnel vision and closed off to ideas. It's about, you know, listening to all sorts of new ideas. And it might be that somebody mentioned something, Oh yeah, actually that's really good. You go away and research

[00:52:32] it and think, Oh yeah, actually that would really benefit the project we've got. Um, that we can implement it. So, so yeah, it's, it's about just going out there and having fun and getting your hands dirty and yeah, just enjoying yourself.