#105: (WILD) Wilding the City, with Sophie Thompson (LDA Design)

[00:00:00] Urban Wilding is about retrofitting nature and nature-based solutions into our towns and cities and seizing all opportunities, regardless of location, context, scale, to create connected corridors and stepping stone habitats so wildlife and natural places can flow. Welcome to the Green Urbanist podcast, where we explore climate action in cities with the people

[00:00:26] who are making it happen. Hosted by me, Ross O'Cealli, an urban designer and sustainability educator. Hello and welcome to episode two in this six-part series on urban rewilding. You'll spot the episodes in this series with the word WILD, all caps, at the start of the title. And if you missed episode one, you can catch up on that after this. That's a conversation with Sean McCormack. The link to

[00:00:53] that is in the episode description. It's episode 102. You don't have to listen to them in order, so feel free to stick with this one for now and jump onto that one afterwards if you like. Today's episode is a conversation with Sophie Thompson of LDA Design. I am a landscape architect. I have been working in design and delivery in urban environments for

[00:01:17] about 20 plus years now and I work for an organisation called LDA Design. In this episode, we discuss how wild nature can be brought into city streets and public spaces, even in very constrained circumstances. The importance of working closely with communities and managing different ideas of what nature and wildness is. We talk about some examples of LDA's work,

[00:01:44] real transformations of highly urban spaces into places for people and nature, and how to manage the complexities and constraints of working in cities. Hope you enjoy the conversation with Sophie. So before we get into talking about some of your projects, I'd love to know what that term means to you, if you have a sort of definition of urban rewilding, or if you use a different term,

[00:02:08] tell me about that and why. Sure, yeah. I actually associate more with the term wilding rather than rewilding, because I think in the urban context it becomes a bit of a distraction. There's much debate in the industry, certainly amongst colleagues of mine we've debated this, because the re suggests various different things, perhaps a return to a kind of former state,

[00:02:36] and obviously cities and urban environments have been heavily modified by and for humans. So for me, urban wilding is about retrofitting nature and nature-based solutions into our towns and cities, and seizing all opportunities, regardless of location, context, scale, to create connected corridors and

[00:03:00] stepping stone habitats so wildlife and natural processes can flow. But fundamentally for me, it's also about our relationship as human beings to nature, whatever we do to nature, we do to ourselves, and how humans and nature thrive and interact. So that draws on biophilic principles where

[00:03:23] human beings in an affinity with the natural world. So it's more of a sort of radical approach about this of fully immersion into nature, experiencing sky, plants, seasons, shadows, water, using all the senses, and also about questioning perhaps our aesthetic sensibilities around what nature actually might be. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I love that. Thank you for that.

[00:03:51] Cool. Let's talk about some of your projects then that maybe take a wilding approach or bring in some of these principles into your work. And I'll let you sort of tell us about a few, whatever you think is a good example. Sure. I mean, just by way of context, the type of projects that I typically get involved in an LDA design as a practice goes from wilding or public realm strategies and green infrastructure strategies at a

[00:04:18] real strategic scale in heavily contested environments around improving air quality, diversity, biodiversity, social inequalities, and all the things that the whole industry are facing in terms of the climate emergency and biodiversity decline. So the last few years I've been working on strategies in Holborn, Farringdon, Kings Cross, Enfield Town, outside of London, Newcastle.

[00:04:42] So the kind of larger strategy piece. And then also I've been involved in the design and delivery on the ground of what people sort of turn me off in the greater green schemes around retrofitting nature into highways, pavements, roofs, hard infrastructure for the benefits of nature and people.

[00:05:08] I suppose one of the biggest transformations I've been lucky enough to be involved with in the last few years has been the West End project, working with Camden Council and many other partners. And that scheme removed the one-way system and general traffic to Tottencourt Road in central London, widening that and decluttering pavements. A lot around safety, creating 2.6 kilometres, I think it was, of cycle lanes. But by virtue of closing streets and this hard infrastructure,

[00:05:37] the project was able to create a sequence of 11 green spaces, pocket parks and squares, which I think was just about under a hectare of new public space. And those type of projects, I think, raise lots of, I suppose, barriers and challenges in kind of implementing some of the things we're talking about here in terms of wilding.

[00:06:03] Because cities are so complex, space is contested, there's lots of different demands and lots of different kind of views. And obviously bringing community along that journey is really important. So I'm happy to cite a few examples from that, but I just thought that overview might be quite useful. And West End project, I think, is quite a good example because you probably couldn't get, I mean, zone one central London, you probably couldn't get more urban than this if you tried.

[00:06:30] That's great. Thank you. And I think like having lived in London for about eight years before I moved away in August, I've been able to experience the changes that have happened in a lot of these projects. So it's been really, really great to sort of, yeah, cycle through Tottenham Court Road one day and think like, oh, last year this was absolutely horrible and now it's just so nice. But that's great. That West End project, is that the one that's focused on Tottenham Court Road or is that a collection of other spaces?

[00:06:59] So it's a collection of 11 spaces. The first space we delivered, which actually I think probably provides quite a good example of some of the issues we're facing, was a space called Whitfield Gardens, which actually was, this one was on Tottenham Court Road, the other stretch right down to Shaftesbury Avenue in the south. And Whitfield Gardens lies just off the main road, opposite

[00:07:25] Heels on Tottenham Court Road, a kind of big shopping retail area, but also an established community, lots of office workers in this area as well. And it was an existing space. So this was actually not a space that was kind of through reassignment of highway. This was an existing space, albeit its context changed enormously. And it was a really precious space. The area is hugely

[00:07:49] deficient in nature and Natural England's new toolkit actually is kind of really high in terms of nature deprivation and open space deprivation. And also Arup recently did a study about urban heat island effects. And again, it's really pronounced in that. But we effectively, Whitfield Gardens was a urban space of two halves. And when we started the project, there was lots of issues

[00:08:13] around antisocial behaviour, drug use, selling, littering, and even people defecating in planting areas. It was half of it was a kind of plant area, which is a lot softer. The half was more an urban space with very little seating. But the planting areas were very deep. There was big woody shrubs, poor sight lines, there was graffiti on a mural. So it had a general feeling of unsafety. And lots of people reported to actually walking past it rather than through it. But when

[00:08:42] we came to the community, it had really polarised views. So you had existing community members and local gardening volunteers at one extreme that wanted 90% of the space green, and they wanted more of a shrubby vegetation. They talked about kind of hedgerow mixes, for example, because they recognised that was really good for wildlife. The local businesses, and we had a coffee shop there and restaurants, etc. They wanted actually to be about 90% hard, because they were

[00:09:10] really the ones having to bear the brunt of maintenance. They had people sitting outside, actually reporting this feeling of unsafety, litter, etc. So having to navigate between such different views was actually a real challenge for the project. And also things like secured by design principles in the industry can be quite a blunt instrument. And sometimes they advise against

[00:09:34] planting because actually, you know, it might block views and that sort of thing. But actually, in contrast, research shows that flowers make places feel safer. So we had to navigate that kind of, you know, and we overcame that through co-designing, developing alternatives, sharing precedents, and we reconfigured the space. So we tried to keep as much planting as was that was there

[00:10:01] when we came to it, which was which was a significant amount. But we created it in a different configuration. So raised planting with seating edges less deep, planting that was lower level, but also had a layer of multiserm shrubs and trees so you could actually see through. Native and non-native for seasonal interest, colour benefits to wildlife, different choice of paths, wider paths, lighting.

[00:10:27] So, you know, and it's been really popular. There's a street food market next to it. It's very popular for that. So that is typically the kind of, you know, some of the top things that we're dealing with. And, you know, obviously things like underground constraints, maintenance, cultural associations, like I said earlier, are also topics, I think, that in our day-to-day lives we have to navigate. That's such a great illustration of how complex it is doing projects in such an urban setting.

[00:10:57] And I think the contrast between certainly rural rewilding projects where there may be, you know, nobody on the land or maybe, you know, very lightly treaded to coming straight into the centre of London where you have all these competing factors. Thanks for going through that. I think that was really useful. And I think it, I guess it illustrates, and tell me if this is correct, the way that maybe a hands-off approach to rewilding where you might say, well, we'll just

[00:11:25] sort of let nature do its thing is not so, it can't always be so appropriate because you're trying to deal with things like sight lines and feelings of safety and all these different conflicting sort of needs and wants in the space. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and I think you just won't, you won't get, you won't get buy-in from community or you won't get approvals. So you're almost on a bit of a non-starter really,

[00:11:52] to be, to be honest. And, and actually understanding as well that one person's view of what nature might be is different to another's because actually lots of people have also lost that kind of contact or they've got cultural associations with a slightly wilder aesthetic or, you know, and actually, you know, cities will always have lots of people, you know, and, you know, and I think this is where

[00:12:21] I come back to slight nervousness around the term rewilding when you're talking about spaces like that. And obviously this is my kind of, this is my terms of reference to the type of projects I get involved in because often the rewilding in cities projects that have been purported, which are fantastic, you know, the sort of projects where beavers have been reintroduced, they generally involve quite a lot

[00:12:42] larger areas where there might be a slight sort of, slightly less kind of human sort of interaction here. And I think the human bit and how we get back to our kind of origins of wildness as a human being and actually what that means to me is, is really fascinating as well. Yeah, absolutely. Do you think from a practical point of view, I'd be interested in, in understanding

[00:13:07] when you have so many constraints, how do you get that bit of wildness in, is it in the planting strategy or, you know, because it ends up being quite a designed landscape. So what for you makes it a bit wilder than maybe it could be? Yeah. I mean, I think there's lots of layers to this. I think there's an element of, you know, plant, you know, planting, but also I think to me, it's actually about how you incorporate other kind

[00:13:34] of perhaps non-conventional sort of components to that as well. And things that you know will be good for wildlife. So more a multifunctional thing. So for example, dead wood, you know, actually is great for play. I'd love to see children being, you know, out den building more in urban environments, climbing trees, you know, and also things like fruits, berries.

[00:14:00] Wouldn't it be great to have people foraging more, you know, kind of in our urban environments as well, or swimming in ponds and rivers that becomes mainstream, mainstream. So for me, it's kind of integrating those other things as well, as this kind of mutually beneficial kind of, you know, organism, but, but there'll always have to be decisions around kind of how you, how you use space and how you, you navigate this. And there's obviously tensions around lighting spaces and how

[00:14:29] that affects wildlife and how you, how you choose that really. So, you know, and also I think education around this as well, weeds that actually bring lots of benefit like valerian or ragwort, et cetera, actually trying to help people understand through engagement or signage, how actually that is necessarily, you know, that's beneficial. And bees and wasps that might

[00:14:55] perceive sort of dangerous, ironically over a car next to it on a busy road, you know, or terms in childhood, like creepy crawlies making people scared of spiders from an early age. You know, there's all that kind of thing, isn't there? I think there's so, yeah, there's, there's lots of layers to this. Yeah. I love the, I love the interactive aspect of it. I think whenever I find a big piece of deadwood, like a fallen tree in a park, I always feel compelled to walk on it and just have a little play on it

[00:15:20] at 30 years of age. So hopefully, hopefully kids are doing the same. Fantastic. I'd be, I'd be really interested to know, you've spoken a little bit about how the local, how you sort of interact with local communities and community engagement being a really core part of your approach is you tell me a little bit about that, how you might do that on any given project and what that might mean for the outcome.

[00:15:49] Wow. That's a big question, Ron. And I guess, I guess maybe to focus a bit more, I mean, do people respond well to the idea of a wilder, wilder spaces? I think, I think there's not a one size fits all solution effectively. I think it can vary absolutely enormously. And there's so much cultural associations around kind of, you know,

[00:16:18] where people have come from in terms of nature. And I think how you can almost deliver wild as well or wilder, whilst also making a space look like it's cared for. And I think, you know, kind of actually how you deal with the edges, how there are designed other elements. I think, and obviously interpretation. And I think on any project, the first thing that's

[00:16:44] really important is to actually try and understand who the community are and those hyper local networks. So actually working with the key stakeholders that are already there. So you don't miss anyone out and you try and find out who the lesser heard voices are as part of and get to know people as part of a kind of continual conversation. And we've had on projects, for example, where people haven't wanted to use certain colours. And I know chatting with other, you know, sort of colleagues in the

[00:17:13] industry, I know somebody that had a project where no one wanted to use, didn't like the colour purple. And when you unpicked that, that was because actually that was associated with things like buddlias that sell seed typically on railways as kind of pioneer species, because they associated that with something that was a bit dangerous, kind of slightly wild, not cared for, you know,

[00:17:41] it went beyond kind of cultural norms. And, you know, and actually they didn't didn't want that colour in part of their scheme or, and you have greater acceptance in different generations and where people are coming from. And I know others have done way more research on this and know more than I in terms of this. But that kind of perception is, I think, how you work alongside communities, but actually also, they would, when you start a project, you would co plan what we call the engagement strategy on

[00:18:09] that. So rather than imparting what you think, and you know, and we've done, you've done some really interesting projects, we've worked with local gardening charities, who've already got strong, established networks around kind of having fire pit talks or making or gardening together as an activity, rather than the traditional view of a consultant just standing there up against a board, developing something in isolation. And there's lots of layers to this, I think, around online and offline. Hence, the question is quite a big one.

[00:18:40] No, that's great. That's great. And I think maybe we can come back to some of those points in a bit if we have time. But I'd be really interested to know, you've obviously had several of these projects now throughout London, where you're, you've been successful in sort of bringing in a wilder sort of approach. Do you think, I suppose, this is also a slightly broad question. Do you think that there's been larger sort of systemic factors at play that have allowed you to do that?

[00:19:07] I mean, do you think our perceptions are changing? Do you think people are asking for more of this now? Or has it been more of a driven from the bottom up? You know, we think this is a good idea. So we're going to push for it. I'd say, yeah, I think that's a really good question. I'd say it's a bit of both. I think, I mean, I noticed a huge shift after the pandemic in kind of suddenly everyone was

[00:19:32] the whole built environment industry kind of woke up to this. Landscape architects had sort of been banging on about some of this stuff for 20 odd years. And I think that people suddenly appreciated that because they were obviously at home. And, you know, their local environment became really important. But I think there's been a top down and bottom up sort of approach. I've noticed as well, private organisations, for example, in London, like the business improvement districts, private large

[00:20:00] landowners are partnering a lot more with local authorities. And some of this land was the kind of remit of kind of, you know, councils, and it was kind of felt that it was public land, whereas actually people on a community level reclaimed that. And I think that, you know, and I think it's kind of how you deem sort of what is wild. It's like more like a new nature, really. You know, and there's

[00:20:26] certain, I think, typologies of say planting, which are way more acceptable than others. So for example, you know, people will be familiar with kind of, you know, meadows or pictorial meadows, which have kind of greater level of perennials and woodlands. But it's that shrubby kind of, you know, sort of typology that people I think often struggle with. But I do feel that people are moving away from needing to see kind of monoculture clipped sort of hedges. I mean,

[00:20:55] when I first started my career, you know, the horticultural knowledge actually industry was woeful. And there was a joke that, you know, people only knew sort of 10, 20 species and you saw business parks with massive catoniasta horizontalis or mahonia in monoculture. And obviously there's been a huge shift around that. And I think beauty and how, you know, you and colour to me is a really important one. You know, people love seeing colour and they'll actually drive out of a city to

[00:21:24] somewhere if they think they're going to see autumn colour or, you know, to, you know, blossom, they might see somewhere. So actually for me, colour is a really important component to this as well. But I think it's a slow kind of cultural shift that we're going through. But it would say it's kind of, you know, people, a community level doing more and obviously involve more in gardening and feel like they can reclaim public realm. But it's also a kind of,

[00:21:52] you know, government level. And there's policies now that are helping and strategies around that. That's very interesting. Yeah. Do you think there's practical things around what clients will sign off on or what local authorities are willing to adopt and things like that? Is that shifting or is that sort of not really playing into it too much? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I had, you know, I'd say 10 years ago to try and get a client to do what

[00:22:19] was, you know, sort of sustainable, you know, urban drainage systems and rainwater gardens and trying to sign off or certain trees on certain streets because of maintenance concerns or, you know, that were slightly newer, I'd say was quite challenging and adopting those, for example. And I think that, you know, I think there's still a way to go. But I think people understand

[00:22:43] and recognise the relationships between actually what a lot of what we're trying to do here and actually how that goes back to kind of, you know, their policy. And I think policy is helping a lot in this, like, you know, the nature recovery strategies, biodiversity, net gain, urban greening factor. So their terms of reference are quite different. And actually, what's quite good is there's a lot more precedence now. So you can kind of point to some amazing projects that others are doing. There's loads of people doing fantastic stuff in the industry. And I think,

[00:23:13] again, that provides reassurance. You can go and speak to somebody who might be maintaining a space, etc. But I think there is still issues around lack of resources and horticultural skills in terms of maintenance. Also, I think it's rather simplistic view, you know, around, say, depaving, where actually you've got to be really careful around things like underground constraints, sellers, utilities, working with utility companies. So I think, you know, there's, there's still a way to go.

[00:23:42] What have been, I mean, maybe you've touched on a few of them there, but what have been some of the barriers or the challenges you've been facing that you've had to overcome? And, and I suppose, what advice would you give to others who are trying to, trying to do the same thing? That's a really good question. I think, okay, so if we take a couple of examples of barriers I just

[00:24:06] cited there, say to do with maintenance and long-term governance of projects, I think early on, have conversations with the teams that are likely going to be maintaining this, go and visit projects where actually maintenance might have been done differently, or, you know, they can speak to people maintaining, think, you know, you know, things remove, moving away from a desire necessary to tidy up

[00:24:34] landscapes through the overwintering period. So, you know, deadheading when actually seeds should be left, using chemicals when actually you can use physical hand means. I think, you know, that, those sorts of lessons, making your own compost from leaf mold, and there's some really good people you can go and speak to, but I think also thinking about perhaps, and I think it is, to be fair to lots of people kind of dealing with maintaining this in kind of public bodies,

[00:25:01] actually there's a severe lack of resources, money, they inherit project, more and more projects now, and actually the same budgets. And I think thinking through more innovative governance models, I think is probably, you know, there's organisations like Good Gym, that now kind of help with community maintenance schemes. There's a great project in Liverpool called the Liverpool Urban Greenup, and they've been using that organisation quite a lot. See, you know, the kind of corporate social

[00:25:31] environmental responsibility kind of pots of money that are available, you know, actually trying to access those on projects and what organisations can use to facilitate this. There's a lot more kind of partnership around that. Understand, I suppose another key thing in terms of lessons learnt is underground constraints and managing expectations, because, you know, you cannot be planting,

[00:25:55] you know, big trees above really, you know, some sensitive, you know, kits of utility, or you have to think, or you have to think carefully about what the barriers here and what your considerations are. So early on in a project, where there might be sellers, utilities, you know, I think, to carry out early surveys, work with the utility companies to try and understand what all those

[00:26:20] constraints are. And then you can do alternative approaches to try and, you know, kind of add in kind of blue and green infrastructure, but maybe in a different way than you'd perhaps originally conceived. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, the complexities of doing this in a street environment or in a highly urban environment are just sort of multiplied compared to doing it, we'll say, in a park or on an urban edge site. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:50] Is there any other projects you wanted to highlight and just tell us about before we sort of move on? I think we've got a good bit of time left. So I wanted to make sure we had a chance to sort of chat through any other interesting projects. I suppose in terms of interesting projects that have influenced perhaps the work that I've been doing. So I'm obviously LDA design. I've got an amazing portfolio of projects, you know, the likes of Batty Power Station and, you know, right through to smaller projects,

[00:27:19] Strand Aldrich. And I think you spoke to a colleague of mine a few months ago. So I won't talk about those, but I think there is some really interesting projects actually happening in the wider industry. I was lucky enough to judge the World Landscape Architecture Awards a few months ago, and I had a bit of this kind of, you know, privileged window into some of these projects. And I think organisations like Chorinscape, you know, the founder, Conjuan Yu, devised the sponge city concept after he saw the devastation of rapid urbanisation

[00:27:49] in China and actually creating these huge kind of sort of water attenuation areas and areas for wildlife. Highline, I think, you know, and the field operations project, obviously, this is very well known in New York, I think moved the conversation on a lot. And I think, you know, things like Sheffield Greater Green, that really helped the conversation as well, that Sheffield City Council, Nigel Dunnett and others were involved in.

[00:28:17] And the, as I said earlier, the Liverpool Urban Greenup Project, which was by Reshape, Landscape Architecture and Liverpool City Council, is one of three projects that was a European funded project, which is kind of about renaturing cities to mitigate the effects of climate change. They've done huge monitoring now and assessment on that and are getting the feedback. So I think there's Turkey's one of the cities, there was a city, I think, in Spain as well. So there's a website for that. So there is some, you know, there's some really, you know,

[00:28:46] really interesting projects happening elsewhere. And yeah, and I think there's lots of lessons to be learned. That's great. I mean, that last one sounds like a great one for the podcast as well. So I might have to get in touch with them. Thanks for sharing that. How important is it in terms of having these other projects happening? You know, how much does that directly influence you?

[00:29:13] How important is it for the industry as a whole to have these big projects that are happening and raising the profile of a Wilder approach? I think it's hugely important because I think going back to your earlier point about perhaps resistance or lack of understanding, actually, if you can share projects that people can see, I think that is really hugely helpful.

[00:29:35] But I think also we realise now that we need to operate between different professional fields a lot more. It needs to be a lot more interdisciplinary because not one profession is going to solve all this. So between the fields of engineering, master planning, urban design, biology, landscape architecture, psychology, even anthropology, you know, I think there's, you know, there's some really interesting, you know, kind of collaborations to be had

[00:30:03] because that interdisciplinary approach brings valuable results because it just ties these different perspectives together. And I think that I think to me, that's that's also really important here. And I think that the industry is is changing. And certainly previously in local authorities where there might have been stereotypical silos between departments, I am seeing more joint projects where transport teams and development teams

[00:30:30] and planning teams are coming together with the place teams, the green space teams. And I think that to me is really significant too. That sounds really positive. We have a good bit of time to sort of talk on the last question, which I think is good because it's it's it's one we could talk about for a while, I think, which is is this idea of, we'll say, wilding or urban wilding,

[00:30:56] to use your term as a as a wider movement in terms of getting that out there and happening much more often in towns and cities across the UK. What do you see as the potential for that moving forward? And how would you like to see that changing as as an approach, as a movement in the coming years? Yeah, I think I mean, I think in terms of what I suppose what success might look like

[00:31:20] to start off with, I think will be people actually seeing how various interventions have been able to contribute positively to, say, water storage or alternative energy, growing food, carbon sequestration, biodiversity as a as a mainstream kind of understanding. So actually, it's not just about the industry understanders. So I suppose, you know, and that's why, you know, things like, you know,

[00:31:47] obviously, you know, podcasts and, you know, newspaper articles and just, you know, socials and every form of communication we have to kind of raise the profile and actually human beings seeing themselves as part of nature and the same system and not superior to it and not actually in cities and towns as not being somewhere you have to go and go and visit.

[00:32:12] And I think, you know, that mainstream understanding of kind of actually we're all in it together and there's not a one size fits all approach and we need to kind of tackle some of the issues we're kind of dealing with here and recognise it's good for nature, it's good for people and also it's good for the economy. You know, actually, and I think, you know, many people in the urban greening movement so we should never put a price on nature and commodify it, which, you know, I agree with to a certain extent,

[00:32:40] but actually to emphasise its economic value, if you're talking with developers or councils or others, actually, you know, there needs to be an economic case to make sure it actually happens. You know, so, you know, and I think, you know, all that kind of, you know, this kind of groundswell coming together is really important. That's, yeah, that's really interesting.

[00:33:06] I mean, there's a huge communication piece around wilding or climate adaptation or urban greening or any of these sort of interrelated terms that they can feel quite technical, I think, sometimes, but actually making them very tangible for people is really important. And how do you find, in general, communicating with people on these topics? Do people sort of get it or do you have to sort of take different angles?

[00:33:36] I think it's where everyone's terms of reference are coming from, really. I think, yeah, I think, I mean, some of the projects that we've designed and delivered in the last few years and, you know, range hugely. And I think most people who actually walk through an area that previously was perhaps, you know, very industrialised, highly over-engineered, very hard, that has actually been retrofitted for nature,

[00:34:03] actually, I think most people would agree, you know, that it's actually, you know, of huge benefit. I mean, you take projects like the Olympic Park, for example, in London, a project that LDA Design led on the design for since 2012. And that was all about the legacy. That was about the Olympics being a moment in time and about the legacy. And we've worked on various projects since then of a whole range of different scales,

[00:34:30] Stratford Water from the most recent one, which is the new cultural quarter moving east. And, you know, again, highly contested, huge terracing next to rivers, thinking about planting and nature. And I suppose people walk around those and can judge themselves firsthand and then share. But actually, I think there's still lots to be done around kind of considerations around how we learn lessons from these projects around, I think we've touched on it already,

[00:34:57] but aesthetic sensibilities around kind of benefits, the ratio of hard to soft, safety, lighting, you know. And I think, you know, I suppose it goes back to people's firsthand experience and also concerns around gentrification. And I think that's something because often, you know, some of these projects are seen to kind of gentrify areas and actually push other people out.

[00:35:23] And for me, it should be everyone should just have access to, you know, blue and green spaces on their doorstep wherever they are. It shouldn't be about actually you've got it and now your property value is going to be increased. And so I think there's lots of considerations and it comes back to what everyone's lived experience is obviously very different, you know. And actually, again, you know, conversations we've had around, for example,

[00:35:50] some of these highways projects where you're reassigning space away from highway. Well, if you're, you know, say a cleaner waking up at four or five in the morning, need, you know, and you've got really poor public transport links, actually you need to be able to drive to get to your place of work. So, you know, how do you say, well, actually, we're going to completely close this street off. You can't get there. And actually, there's a huge to be done, a lot to be done still in terms of investment in infrastructure

[00:36:21] and actually giving people choice, you know. So I think, you know, we've got to be quite careful here, I think, in terms of just assuming that our lived experience is the same as everyone else's. That's a great point. And I think it takes me on to a question around actually how, we'll take your example of the closure of highways. I don't even like to use the word closure, but it's, you know, taking the cars out and opening it up for other,

[00:36:47] you know, human beings to use and bringing in nature into those spaces. You know, how much potential is that to sort of become mainstream and to be scaled up and replicated across the UK's towns and cities? Yeah, I mean, I think this is the biggest opportunity in towns and cities, more so than anywhere else. I mean, it's certainly, I'd say it's almost easier, darest I say, to close a street in Zone 1 Central London

[00:37:15] than it might be, you know, outside in a kind of more suburban area, because obviously the infrastructure and the choices aren't there. And obviously there's, you know, car in some instances is still king, there's not alternatives, complexity of family lives, etc, etc. So for me, given the fact that I think something like 80% of the space between buildings is comprising space and actually space is hugely contested,

[00:37:40] there's obviously opportunities in parks to move away from just having areas of mown grass and kind of, you know, improving biodiversity. But actually retrofitting around highways or, you know, roofs and walls, I think is, to me, is probably one of the biggest opportunities we have. And it feels like actually, you know, around the world now, you know, cities are almost competing on this front.

[00:38:06] You see Paris and, you know, every week they're stating about another street where they've, you know, reassigned space. But acknowledging you still have to have those functioning streets for businesses, you have to have the ability to service, disabled access, emergency access. So, you know, it's not a simplistic view of actually, we can't support local businesses anymore, we're just going to be completely closed. And again, it's a very nuanced approach. And I mean, we're working on a really interesting project at the moment in Leamington Spa.

[00:38:35] There's been lots of engagement there around taking kind of general traffic from the main high street. And 90% of that traffic is actually through traffic. It's not traffic actually stopping in the town. So actually, you know, there's huge benefits around that. But you have to consider very carefully who that might impact and actually what the alternatives might be. But I do, going back to your question, I think there is absolutely huge potential here. And it's really exciting.

[00:39:05] Yeah, I mean, I sense that as well. I think there's a mindset shift that going from streets are for the movement of vehicles. And therefore, if there's vehicles on them, there's no room to do anything besides maybe plant a few street trees. But even then, you know, towards this idea of actually, let's just re-imagine, you know, it's just a space.

[00:39:27] Let's try and re-imagine it within the wider network of the city to be something that is maybe part of a green network or is a sort of small hub of biodiversity and green space. And I think that's really, really exciting. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think it's how the networks work together. So it might seem quite an insignificant amount of space.

[00:39:49] But actually, when you start to join it up and create these sort of stepping stones and these, you know, kind of connected corridors that enable flows of wildlife, I think that is where we're starting to really, really see the shift. I mean, I would say another key consideration here is not just having a blanket approach. And in London and lots of other cities, especially in the UK, there's hugely historic streets here.

[00:40:14] And I think actually understanding what's actually appropriate for context is really important. We've just, a scheme has literally just completed the last few months on Grey Street in Newcastle. And that is reputed to be the most sort of, you know, one of the most historic and special streets in England. It's a beautiful Georgian street. And we've put in some rainwater gardens to one side as part of a kind of long term approach to the whole city around reassignment of space.

[00:40:43] But considering really carefully the aesthetics around actually that and actually what is appropriate in terms of setting. And that goes back to an early point around horticultural expertise and people understanding those kind of, you know, aesthetics as well. There's an interesting case in one of the very well maintained grass lawns in Cambridge, I think. I always get Cambridge and Oxford mixed up when I hear an example from one of them. But I think it was Cambridge, this one.

[00:41:13] And they have that sort of, you know, snooker table, bright green flat lawn that is, you know, they mow twice a week or whatever. And they took half of it and planted a wildflower meadow mix and reduced the maintenance, you know, drastically. And I think they kept it for, you know, they kept it there for a year. And they did some surveys to see what visitors and residents and students thought. And they actually had the two side by sides. They had the manicured lawn and then the wildflower meadow beside it.

[00:41:40] And, you know, what they were very concerned about was this idea that it's, this is, you know, this lawn is part of the historic ensemble, you know, design sort of ensemble of the streetscape and the architecture. And it's very historic and everything. And what they found in general was that very, very few people preferred the manicured lawn over the wildflower meadow. So there was a huge support they got from the surveys of people saying, like, it's more color. There's more wildlife. I can see more insects around. You know, I can see the benefits.

[00:42:10] And they did biodiversity surveys and found lots of benefits to it as well. So that was a very interesting case of sometimes testing. And this case was like an A-B test and actually giving people a chance to experience something new gave them a chance to actually give them more confidence to do more of that and to go beyond what they thought maybe was possible. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting example.

[00:42:35] And I think the whole trialling of projects and prototyping, again, is something that, again, I think COVID and kind of the COVID safe schemes and, you know, some of those other kind of, dare I say, low traffic neighbourhoods. So there's been a lot of obviously contention around those, partly because of kind of how quickly they happened and lack of kind of engagement. But for me, actually, that prototyping is really important.

[00:43:03] And actually just learning lessons around what actually is more beneficial in terms of the kind of choices we have or the types of habitat or, you know, these are quite novel ecosystems often in cities, aren't they? You know, there's a whole range of different considerations around, you know, it's not just dragging and dropping some native kind of woodland mix and putting in or a native kind of, you know, meadow mix.

[00:43:30] Actually, it's around seasonal interest and what's good for pollinators and, you know, and a mix of different species. But how people receive that, I think, is, you know, it's really interesting. You know, and I'd like to be good to see more research in terms of sort of cultural acceptance of some of these kind of types of habitats and perhaps some of the ones that aren't appearing quite so much. What might be holding those back in terms of our perception?

[00:44:00] Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think if I definitely read a few papers here and there, so I'll send you over anything. Oh, that would be amazing. Relevant to that because it is really interesting. Do you think there's a need for a more strategic approach to these street transformations or sort of smaller spaces of wilding? It sounds like there's good projects happening here and there.

[00:44:26] But is anyone sort of taking a city level view and identifying where is the best place to put these things? I think, yes, I think it's getting, this is starting to happen a bit more now. I think the advent of BNG and the nature recovery strategies that obviously every local authority is duty bound to produce is helping.

[00:44:49] I think London, for example, is looking at the whole green infrastructure kind of strategic network and looking at opportunities and mapping. And there's new mapping tools that Natural England have come up with that are related to kind of areas of greatest need and how councils might focus their sort of priorities. So I think the strategic, I think we need to, there's two things, isn't there really? I think there's obviously areas that are in greater need where there needs to be prioritisation.

[00:45:18] There's areas where actually there might be missing stepping stones and part of kind of wider ecological networks to do with linking with countryside or sites of importance for nature conservation. But then there might be just projects that happen where this is a bit of a leftover space and actually monies are available and the community are willing and it's got the right ownership and there's no utilities. But you have to be a hostage to fortune as well.

[00:45:44] So I think it's kind of, you know, in the sort of grassroots sort of stuff as well, I think needs to be encouraged. So it's a kind of, again, it goes back to that kind of, yes, sort of the bigger scale is really important. You know, in other cities like Helsinki have got a great biodiversity strategy for the whole city. I think, you know, every city should have, you know, they've got biodiversity action plans, but actually mapping where some of that might go and the focus I think is important. But, you know, it does feel like it is, you know, it is starting to happen a little bit more.

[00:46:14] That's great. That's great. Any other thoughts before we wrap up just on this mainstreaming point and what you think might need to happen to sort of get this going? I think there needs to be more government investment, central government. I think some of these projects are very difficult to finance from the private pocket. And actually, you know, and developers, you know, lots of developers and landowners doing a fantastic job, you know.

[00:46:40] And, you know, look at projects like, you know, sort of Eden Project partnering with Canary Wharf, you know. I mean, that wouldn't have been heard of 10 years ago and kind of, you know, sort of the public private kind of partnerships are important. But I feel like we do need a lot more government investment on this. And I think, you know, I think getting the balance right of kind of also people and people activities for cycling, active travel, walking for play for events.

[00:47:09] So actually, you know, the wilding projects are really important, but you need to decide what's right. And I think that's why the whole system network is so important to understand. It doesn't just come from one perspective. And I think if you have a combined kind of green infrastructure and public realm strategy, then everyone kind of has their terms of kind of reference and understands where we're all kind of heading to in terms of the vision for that.

[00:47:38] But yeah, an answer to your question, I think it needs much greater levels of investment and, you know, and actually kind of government backing. That makes sense to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Where can people find out a bit more about your projects and what you're involved in? Yeah, sure. If everyone would like to go to ldadesign.co.uk, there's lots of projects on here or follow LDA or myself on socials and colleagues. That would be fantastic. Great.

[00:48:07] I'll link in the episode description just links to some of the projects we talked about so people can go and have a look at those, which is always nice. And yeah, thank you so much. It's been a great conversation. Thank you, Ross. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. And thanks for inviting me to be here today.